Torsoman vs The Ripper

[caz]

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

Hi Sam,

Good to see you back!

I agree that the ripper would not have had the 'luxury' of murdering and mutilating where he lived, if he didn't live alone. Equally, he may or may not have had a place of his own if he simply preferred to leave his victims where he found them, to be quickly discovered. I can't see why a serial killer would have wanted the chore of transporting a body or body parts, if he could have avoided it by continuing to select victims at random out on the open streets, where no connection could be made with his home or place of work.

I certainly struggle with the idea that, if the ripper was living with his family [Lechmere, for example], he would have given himself the additional headache of including any woman among his victims who had to be dismembered and then dumped at a distance, either because he had foolishly killed her too close to 'home', or because of some personal connection between the two.

Love,

Caz
X

[John Wheat]

The problem with not attributing the earlier Torso murders to the Torso Killer but saying that Jack and the Torso Killer were one and the same is the earlier Torso murders are considerably more similar to the later Torso murders than the C5.

[jerryd]

Hi Fiver.

* Not the same location. The Ripper left bodies in a very small area. The Torso Killer left bodies for miles up and down the Thames.
I see your point here as some of the parts were found in Regents Canal, etc, but a lot of the body parts were thought to be dumped in Battersea off a bridge and floated down the river.
* We do not know most of the Torso Killers victims, so we don't know if it was the same victimology.
* Not the same time frame. The Ripper operated for a few months. The Torso Killer operated for years if not decades.
The four that were attributed to the same person occurred between 1887-1889.
* Not the same type of mutilations. The Torso Killer's mutilations were functional to make it easier to transport the bodies.
One interesting torso case that mirrors some of the ripper mutilations was the Tottenham Court Torso in 1884. The eyes had been taken out of the head, the form of the mouth had been disfigured by a cut through the cheek and the nose with part of the cartilage had been cut off.
* The Ripper strangled, then cut the victim's throats. We do not know how the Torso Killer murdered his victims.
Dr. Phillips speculated with the Pinchin torso that she may have been strangled and the cut to the neck covered up any marks.
* The Torso Killer cut his victims in two across the midsection. The Ripper frequently cut his victims abdomens, but not in any particular direction and did not cut them in two.
Not accurate at all I'm afraid to say. That is, as far as cutting the victims in two across the midsection. I would suggest you read up on each of these cases to see how the bodies were dissected.
* Not the same 'disconnection'. The Ripper sliced up soft tissues. The Torso Killer separated the body into separate pieces by disarticulating it.
Again inaccurate. There were dissections performed on Elizabeth Jackson, for example, that went beyond a mere attempt to make transport easier. The Pinchin torso had a cut down the mid-section similar to Ripper victims.
* Not the same targeted areas. The Ripper hacked up the torso and face. The Torso killer separated the body at the joints and across the spine.
Unfortunately, most of the skulls were not found so we don't really know if the faces were mutilated.
* Definite missing organs for the Ripper. Possible missing organs for the Torso Killer, but they may just have been with parts that were not found.
* Some possessions were taken from the sites by the Ripper, probably as trophies. Possessions were not brought to the sites by the Torso Killer - we have no idea if the killer kept them or discarded them.
* The Ripper posed is victims on their back, skirt hiked up, legs spread. The Torso Killer did not pose his victims.
Not sure how you pose body parts, but I would suggest the Whitehall torso was posed in the vault of the Police Buildings and not dumped in the river. The thigh from Elizabeth Jackson was found in a hedge at the Shelley Estate, etc.
* We have no idea if the Ripper or the Torso Killer used ruses.
* Series do not begin or end at the same time.
If you are counting any torso victims before 1888 or so, then yes, they did not begin at the same time. The last torso most of the medicos attributed to the same man, was in 1889. I, personally, am not sure the 1873 torso can be included in the series. Dr. Bond didn't and he was involved in that case as well.
* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.
I am not too sure about that. I believe there is reasonable evidence the torso killer did his work at least where one of the bodies was found.

The only actual similarities are:
* Used a knife.
* Unsolved.

[John Wheat]

Great post Fiver. However I would add we can't be totally sure the Torso Killer didn't use other weapons or surgical instruments as well as a knife.

[Sam Flynn]

* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

[Fiver]

Thread to discuss similarities and differences between the two series. Ive often said that there are more similarities than differences which lead me to lean more toward one man for both. but what do i know lol. just my opinion would love to hear yours.

similarities IMHO:

Same location
Same victimology
Same time frame
Extensive post mortem mutilation
Cutting instrument used ie knife
Vertical gash to midsection
Disconnection of body parts
No overt sexual activity
Abdominal area targeted and pieces removed in flaps
Missing internal organs
Missing possessions
Posing/Displayed victims
Ruse involved
Unsolved
Both series end at the same time

* Not the same location. The Ripper left bodies in a very small area. The Torso Killer left bodies for miles up and down the Thames.
* We do not know most of the Torso Killers victims, so we don't know if it was the same victimology.
* Not the same time frame. The Ripper operated for a few months. The Torso Killer operated for years if not decades.
* Not the same type of mutilations. The Torso Killer's mutilations were functional to make it easier to transport the bodies.
* The Ripper strangled, then cut the victim's throats. We do not know how the Torso Killer murdered his victims.
* The Torso Killer cut his victims in two across the midsection. The Ripper frequently cut his victims abdomens, but not in any particular direction and did not cut them in two.
* Not the same 'disconnection'. The Ripper sliced up soft tissues. The Torso Killer separated the body into separate pieces by disarticulating it.
* Not the same targeted areas. The Ripper hacked up the torso and face. The Torso killer separated the body at the joints and across the spine.
* Definite missing organs for the Ripper. Possible missing organs for the Torso Killer, but they may just have been with parts that were not found.
* Some possessions were taken from the sites by the Ripper, probably as trophies. Possessions were not brought to the sites by the Torso Killer - we have no idea if the killer kept them or discarded them.
* The Ripper posed is victims on their back, skirt hiked up, legs spread. The Torso Killer did not pose his victims.
* We have no idea if the Ripper or the Torso Killer used ruses.
* Series do not begin or end at the same time.
* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.

The only actual similarities are:
* Used a knife.
* Unsolved.

[Aethelwulf]

Obviously I'm a bit biased here but the ripper was picking up women and going to a secluded spot on foot in yards etc for his 'work' . For the torsos, if they were all by the same person (which is debatable), the women must have been taken somewhere indoors and cut up and then transported - horse and cart I would assume for a torso - and then dumped. It just seems like a totally different murderer and approach (if it was one person). I think someone said before, dismembered bodies/torsos are actually a lot more common than what the ripper was doing.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby!

It's been a while since I considered this, but I seem to recall something about the way flaps of skin had been removed (debatably) showing similarities.

Personally, I'm open to the idea of Torso-Ripper.

Hi Diddles!
Kelly, chapman and Elizabth Jackson all had the flesh of their stomach removed by knife in flaps (or strips) by the killer in order to access the inside of the abdoman. Very rare to begin with in a serial killer- whats the chances that two seperate serial killers would do this. This and the other similarities lead me to lean toward they were the same man, but im not married to the idea, just think its most likely.

And my last point above, that both series end around the same time with mckenzie and pinchin is kind of a bigee to me, and is often overlooked, and never adequately explained IMHO.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Abby!

It's been a while since I considered this, but I seem to recall something about the way flaps of skin had been removed (debatably) showing similarities.

Personally, I'm open to the idea of Torso-Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Thread to discuss similarities and differences between the two series. Ive often said that there are more similarities than differences which lead me to lean more toward one man for both. but what do i know lol. just my opinion would love to hear yours.

similarities IMHO:

Same location
Same victimology
Same time frame
Extensive post mortem mutilation
Cutting instrument used ie knife
Vertical gash to midsection
Disconnection of body parts
No overt sexual activity
Abdominal area targeted and pieces removed in flaps
Missing internal organs
Missing possessions
Posing/Displayed victims
Ruse involved
Unsolved
Both series end at the same time