Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Fiver]

Let me ask you several questions you just need to answer yes or no

1. Do You accept that there were back street medicos who carried out a number of different illegal practices?
2. Do you accept that some women died as a result of some of these back-street medical procedures?
3. Do you accept that body dealers were operating in and around Whitechapel at the time of these occurrences?
4. Do you accept that Elizabeth Jackson's body and the missing foetus and her death could have been attributable to a back street medical procedure resulting in her death and possibly the death of her unborn child? Because in the grand scheme of things I only need to prove one case to put the other torsos in the "could have been category"

1 - Yes
2- Yes
3 - No. You have provided zero evidence that organ dealers ever existed. You have provided zero evidence that body dealers still existed in 1888.
4 - Yes. Jackspn's death could have been due to a botched abortion.
4b - No. Putting the other cases in the "could have been category" requires showing that the appropriate organs of the other victims were missing or so heavily decomposed that period doctors would not have been able to tell if the victim had been pregnant.

[rjpalmer]

Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

It's curious, then, that the contemporaries referred to these affairs as "The Whitehall Mystery," the "Battersea Mystery", etc. etc., when there was no mystery--just the wild imagination of later researchers.

I have no idea what this statement is even supposed to mean, Trevor.

[Fiver]

You need to read up on the activities of body dealers in 1888.

It's your theory, so the burden of proof is on you. So far you have provided no evidence that there were still body dealers almost 50 years after the passage of the anatomy act. And you aren't theorizing body dealers, you're theorizing organ dealers, who would be spending large amounts of time and effort to make their product less valuable and then wasting much of the product by throwing it away.

[Fiver]

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies and body parts was to teach would-be doctors, and I would suggest that a human head would have been an invaluable asset for just that purpose, and I am sure that when medical schools obtained complete bodies the heads were studied as much as the rest of the body.

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies was to teach their students about anatomy. That means they needed whole bodies, not random severed body parts. Fortunately, the the Anatomy Act of 1832 had made it easy for medical schools to obtain whole bodies with zero risk that they would be helping a murderer conceal and profit from their crimes.

[Robert St Devil]

4. And more importantly no evidence to show the causes of death

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

the very idea of entirely dismissing a theory in order to bolster a hypothesis is ridiculous if not remarkable

on the one hand, you dismiss Murder as a cause of death because it was never proved
on the other hand, you hypothesize the organs were a means of profit without providing a bill of sale

[Debra A]

I don't know if anybody ever asked you this or what your reply was (I can imagine they did and if so, apologies), but how would you explain that only some but not all body parts and organs were sold (but, instead, were left to be discovered)?

Wouldn't that have been 'money thrown away' for the party not selling them?

Excellent question FrankO
I imagine that any seller of illegally removed organs from a woman who'd died during a botched abortion would want to maximise their profits given the double risk they were taking dismembering the corpse and dumping it in the Thames etc. , plus why not just illegally sell the body as a whole and minimise the risk of being caught dumping the remains?

[Debra A]

Debra isnt propping up personal opinions trevor, shes just stating facts, unlike you...whos just always spouting your cockamamy theories.

and show some ******* respect to her in your responses, among other reasons, shes done more research and found real pertinant new info on this subject than anyone. you dont even deserve her responses.

Thanks Abby. As long as others see it then it doesn't bother me
I'll always be the mouthy subordinate in Trevor's eyes.

[Debra A]

Debra
You can keep propping up your personal opinions on this till the cows come home but it it is not going to change the facts surrounding these toros, and no matter what those doctors opined back then there is no evidence to show causes of death, so no one can categorically state that they were all murdered not then not now.

I can't conclusively prove my theory no more than you can prove yours I am simply offering an alternative to murder based on my research and the evidence of a modern-day forensic pathologist whose input should not be dismissed outright

A more appropriate terminology to be used is " found dead in suspicious circumstances" which I think covers all the scenarios. Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, I have provided zero personal opinion in the post you quote.

I mentioned that James Monro, said that the 'he' thought the four cases were murders done by the same hand. He was there, he had input from and communicated with the detectives and police officers who investigated the cases and the doctors at the autopsies who made first hand observations. It's worth mentioning for people who haven't read much on the cases but have an interest, just so they get a balanced view of what contemporary thoughts were.


What is my theory Trevor? I don't even know myself.
But we are all well aware of yours..

[Abby Normal]

Debra
You can keep propping up your personal opinions on this till the cows come home but it it is not going to change the facts surrounding these toros, and no matter what those doctors opined back then there is no evidence to show causes of death, so no one can categorically state that they were all murdered not then not now.

I can't conclusively prove my theory no more than you can prove yours I am simply offering an alternative to murder based on my research and the evidence of a modern-day forensic pathologist whose input should not be dismissed outright

A more appropriate terminology to be used is " found dead in suspicious circumstances" which I think covers all the scenarios. Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Debra isnt propping up personal opinions trevor, shes just stating facts, unlike you...whos just always spouting your cockamamy theories.

and show some ******* respect to her in your responses, among other reasons, shes done more research and found real pertinant new info on this subject than anyone. you dont even deserve her responses.

[FrankO]

Great, this double posting...

[Aethelwulf]

Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

You mean like:

Juwes = Jurors
Apron = sanitary towel
Missing organs = rogue mortician

[FrankO]

The purpose of medical schools obtaining bodies and body parts was to teach would-be doctors, and I would suggest that a human head would have been an invaluable asset for just that purpose, and I am sure that when medical schools obtained complete bodies the heads were studied as much as the rest of the body.

And back street medicos would also have had to go to a lot of trouble to hide their work and that included those who died either at the time of these procedures or afterwards.

I don't know if anybody ever asked you this or what your reply was (I can imagine they did and if so, apologies), but how would you explain that only some but not all body parts and organs were sold (but, instead, were left to be discovered)?

Wouldn't that have been 'money thrown away' for the party not selling them?

[Trevor Marriott]

It's worth just mentioning again that James Monro referred to the four torso cases, Rainham 1887, Whitehall 1888, Elizabeth Jackson 1889 and Pinchin Street (1889) as 'murders', and 'by the same hand' in his report of 11 September 1889. Granted, he did say that he didn't think there was a connection to the Whitechapel murders.
Doctors Gordon Brown, Philips and Hebbert were all present at the post mortem of the Pinchin Street case and Hebbert wrote the report stating that the indications were that the woman died from haemorrhage and there was no sign of organic disease of the viscera that would have caused death.

Debra
You can keep propping up your personal opinions on this till the cows come home but it it is not going to change the facts surrounding these toros, and no matter what those doctors opined back then there is no evidence to show causes of death, so no one can categorically state that they were all murdered not then not now.

I can't conclusively prove my theory no more than you can prove yours I am simply offering an alternative to murder based on my research and the evidence of a modern-day forensic pathologist whose input should not be dismissed outright

A more appropriate terminology to be used is " found dead in suspicious circumstances" which I think covers all the scenarios. Like many things in Ripperolgy, researchers have created mysteries when there are none to be created.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

It's worth just mentioning again that James Monro referred to the four torso cases, Rainham 1887, Whitehall 1888, Elizabeth Jackson 1889 and Pinchin Street (1889) as 'murders', and 'by the same hand' in his report of 11 September 1889. Granted, he did say that he didn't think there was a connection to the Whitechapel murders.
Doctors Gordon Brown, Philips and Hebbert were all present at the post mortem of the Pinchin Street case and Hebbert wrote the report stating that the indications were that the woman died from haemorrhage and there was no sign of organic disease of the viscera that would have caused death.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor.

We've had this discussion before, but let's try again.

During the Whitehall torso mystery and Pinchin discovery, the medical students were on vacation and the dissecting rooms were closed. We know Elizabeth Jackson did not come from a dissecting room. So, three of the four torso victims '87-'89 were showing up when the dissecting rooms were closed. The authorities discounted the "medical student hoax" claims, due to this fact.

And I have replied before !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. There is no evidence to show the date the victims died
2. There is no evidence to show when the bodies were dismembered
3. There is no date as to when the body parts were disposed of
4. And more importantly no evidence to show the causes of death

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk