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  • Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
    Getting back to motivation, do you mind if we follow JtR's shoes for a bit? Of course this is all from the "What if?" school of History.
    So here he is in Dutfields yard, he has just cut Liz Strides throat and as he was making the second cut, a bloody horse and cart turn up! He slinks into the darkness as the driver peers at Liz's body. Deimshutz jumps off his cart and runs into the building. He moves away quickly. It's a close call. Heart beating madly, hands shaking. The repressed urges and the fact he was nearly caught literally red handed,would have unnerved him? So might he not hide the knife and pop into the nearest pub? Have a brandy to calm the nerves a bit? Perhaps while he is in there Cate Eddowes saunters in. The urge to cut her up begins to rise. Perhaps he is even day dreaming about what he missed with Stride. The urges begin to outweigh the previous fright and he leaves the pub. Now Lawende and co say its pouring with rain. They see the couple as the walk passed. Lawende see's enough of the man for his descrption to be withheld as important. He also see's the back of a short woman wearing a black hat and black jacket. Now we all know that in the dark, lots of colours look black. Given that the killer was seen by the trio at around 01.35, and the body found at 01.45ish that is between 8 and 12 minutes to do the dirty deeds. perhaps 2 minutes for the trio to move on, 1 or 2 minutes to get Cate into that dark corner. 4-8 minutes left. In this time he has to strangle(?) her, cut her throat deeply twice, unbutton the coat,(?) pull her skirts aside or cut through them, cut open the torso avoiding the navel, make several other stabs to the liver groin etc, cut the nose, cheeks, eyelids. Remove intestines, place colon next to body, arrange the arms so the palms face outwards, (this does not happen naturally because of the elbows, try it!) Then he romoves the uterus and the kidney, cuts a large piece of apron to wrap them in, and leaves by the only exit that has nobody in it. In 4-8 minutes. Dr Phillips stated during the Chapman inquest that it would have taken him a minimum of 15 minutes to carry our the mutilations on her body. But Eddowes far more mutilated body was done in half that time? This must beg the questions; Did Lawende really see the back of Eddowes? Chapman had a black hat and dark coat, Stride, long black coat, it seems this was the standard kit for the casual whore of Whitechapel, so could Lawende be seeing another tart and because it was adjacent to Mitre Square all assume it must have been her he saw? Could she not have been killed earlier and not found yet? For JtR to get from Stride to Eddowes and perform the way he did, then an hour later to achieve the events in Goulston street, his luck is incredible, his timing perfect, if this were in a novel or film we would laugh at the absurdity of it all!!!
    Except Eddowes was in a police cell 15 minutes away as Stride was being killed. She was released around the time Stride's body was found.
    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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    • Yes she was.Released just as Liz was taking her last look at the East End, But the next 30 minutes of Cates life are a mystery. Could she have walked down to Mitre Sqare. Could the killer be arriving at the same time? Kill her and be on way by 01.30, then another whore is seen outside the place Lawende and pals come from? He was walking passed. He looked at the man, the face perhaps and something he saw may have been the smoking gun, who knows, but in those 10-12 seconds, how could he be absolutely sure it was Cate? He I.D. her by her clothe remember. Clothes he saw through heavy rain, darkness and at the same time as seeing the punter. I wouldn't hang someone one that. Would you?

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      • Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
        Getting back to motivation, do you mind if we follow JtR's shoes for a bit? Of course this is all from the "What if?" school of History.
        So here he is in Dutfields yard, he has just cut Liz Strides throat and as he was making the second cut, a bloody horse and cart turn up! He slinks into the darkness as the driver peers at Liz's body. Deimshutz jumps off his cart and runs into the building. He moves away quickly. It's a close call. Heart beating madly, hands shaking. The repressed urges and the fact he was nearly caught literally red handed,would have unnerved him? So might he not hide the knife and pop into the nearest pub?
        Pubs were closed before Stride was attacked.


        Now Lawende and co say its pouring with rain. They see the couple as the walk passed. Lawende see's enough of the man for his descrption to be withheld as important. He also see's the back of a short woman wearing a black hat and black jacket. Now we all know that in the dark, lots of colours look black. Given that the killer was seen by the trio at around 01.35, and the body found at 01.45ish that is between 8 and 12 minutes to do the dirty deeds. perhaps 2 minutes for the trio to move on, 1 or 2 minutes to get Cate into that dark corner. 4-8 minutes left. In this time he has to strangle(?) her, cut her throat deeply twice, unbutton the coat,(?) pull her skirts aside or cut through them, cut open the torso avoiding the navel, make several other stabs to the liver groin etc, cut the nose, cheeks, eyelids. Remove intestines, place colon next to body, arrange the arms so the palms face outwards, (this does not happen naturally because of the elbows, try it!) Then he romoves the uterus and the kidney, cuts a large piece of apron to wrap them in, and leaves by the only exit that has nobody in it. In 4-8 minutes. Dr Phillips stated during the Chapman inquest that it would have taken him a minimum of 15 minutes to carry our the mutilations on her body. But Eddowes far more mutilated body was done in half that time? This must beg the questions; Did Lawende really see the back of Eddowes?
        Very good, you arrive at the right question.

        ......his luck is incredible, his timing perfect, if this were in a novel or film we would laugh at the absurdity of it all!!!
        Wouldn't we just, I guess that minor point becomes lost to many theorists.
        Which only goes to show, we don't have to have all the right answers, but we do need to be asking the right questions.
        No-one is ever going to solve this case, but by asking the right questions we can at least begin to cut away all the assumptions that have taken root as fact.

        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
          Yes she was.Released just as Liz was taking her last look at the East End, But the next 30 minutes of Cates life are a mystery. Could she have walked down to Mitre Sqare. Could the killer be arriving at the same time? Kill her and be on way by 01.30, then another whore is seen outside the place Lawende and pals come from? He was walking passed. He looked at the man, the face perhaps and something he saw may have been the smoking gun, who knows, but in those 10-12 seconds, how could he be absolutely sure it was Cate? He I.D. her by her clothe remember. Clothes he saw through heavy rain, darkness and at the same time as seeing the punter. I wouldn't hang someone one that. Would you?
          A nightwatchman on duty in St. James Place (beyond Mitre Square), reported seeing 'people' pass him about 1:30 ish and go towards the Square, or at least his words can be read that way. If this was the killer with Eddowes then Lawende & Co. saw a different couple that night.
          Last edited by Wickerman; 08-28-2020, 06:13 PM.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • I had to find the quote from the press...


            James Blenkingsop, who was on duty as a watchman in St. James's-place (leading to the square), where some street improvements are taking place, states that about half-past one a respectably-dressed man came up to him and said, "Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?" "I didn't take any notice," returned Blenkingsop. "I have seen some people pass.".....
            Star, 1 Oct. 1888.
            Regards, Jon S.

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            • Incredible luck JtR had. All those people around, and he gets away like a puff of fog.

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              • Originally posted by miakaal4 View Post
                Incredible luck JtR had. All those people around, and he gets away like a puff of fog.
                You know, that's not conspiracy, it's an actual fact. He did get away with it all. Luck, smarts, local knowledge, police incompetence, lack of understanding of serial killers. And the Mason's. Obviously.
                Thems the Vagaries.....

                Comment


                • Eddowes was mutilated sometime between 1.30am and 1.44am.

                  There was no mention that she was soaked from the rain, bone dry, or in between.

                  I believe the eye cuts were from the removal of Xanthelasma and probably conducted indoors.

                  GSG tells the IUW(M)ES/Juwes are not to be blamed for "nothing",the reply she gave Constable Robinson when asked her name.

                  If Jack and Kate both headed straight for Mitre Street,there was over 75 minutes to be accounted for.

                  My money is still on 6 Mitre Street,the rear of which was behind the fence gate.

                  Nichols was murdered near London Hospital.

                  Chapman a bit further along Hanbury Street.

                  Reckon Eddowes had intended to be with Stride at Berner Street.

                  The murders stopped after Mary Ann Kelly,a 29 yo local,was killed.

                  All can be linked to one person.

                  Motivation .... blackmail.

                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • Dave, blackmail. Prove it. Where had Henry been? And why blackmail him? The eye cuts weren't Indoors. Kidney disease a coincidence? But, our Henry, an expert in diseases of the eyes and lips?
                    Thems the Vagaries.....

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                    • Section 13.

                      Read that novella.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
                        Dave, blackmail. Prove it. Where had Henry been? And why blackmail him? The eye cuts weren't Indoors. Kidney disease a coincidence? But, our Henry, an expert in diseases of the eyes and lips?
                        I suspect the nicks to the eyelids indicates the killer acknowledging the recent press article (late September) about the retina of the eyes capturing the image of the killer. There just doesn't seem to be any other logical explanation to make such meaningless cuts.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                          I suspect the nicks to the eyelids indicates the killer acknowledging the recent press article (late September) about the retina of the eyes capturing the image of the killer. There just doesn't seem to be any other logical explanation to make such meaningless cuts.
                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Xanthelasma picture.jpg
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ID:	740776 Xanthelasma - Wikipedia
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia


                            Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia


                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • The serology of the Addison‐Gull syndrome - Reuben - 2003 - Hepatology - Wiley Online Library
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                                I suspect the nicks to the eyelids indicates the killer acknowledging the recent press article (late September) about the retina of the eyes capturing the image of the killer. There just doesn't seem to be any other logical explanation to make such meaningless cuts.
                                interesting wick. but i would have thought he would have cut the eyeball/ retina itself if that was the reason.
                                no the most reasonable explanation is liked what his knife could do to the female body.

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