Motivation?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That argument is based on a false premise.
The police account describes a man "standing, lighting his pipe", the press version describes a man coming "out of the doorway", not out of the Beerhouse. There is no indication the Beerhouse was open, that is just a false assumption.




I quoted from the weather conditions for Sept 30th, a chart created by Dave Yost. There was 0.27 inch of rain over Whitechapel.

All your subsequent questions are irrelevant as the basis for asking them was false to begin with.

The Star, Oct1:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.


No indication that the beer house was open?
My whole point is that the beer house was closed at the time. You know that, and so does everyone else.
You're starting to sound desperate. What's the problem?

[Wickerman]

As we have no surviving police statement from Packer, only a few notes by Ass. Comm. Bruce, we have to use a press interview to gain the full story.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881004.html

It is here where Packer told us the encounter with Stride & the client began about 11:45 pm:

On the 29th ult., about 11.45 p.m., a man and woman came to his shop window, and asked for some fruit.

How did he know the time?
Like anyone else, he estimated the time based on the closing of the pubs.

At last the couple moved from their position, and Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then ten or fifteen minutes past twelve o'clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public houses had been closed.

On Saturday night the public houses had to close by 12:00am, midnight.

There's nothing arrogant about restating the record as it has come down to us.

[Joshua Rogan]

Louis had trouble lighting a match to see the body of Liz in the entrance to the club;

"It was rather windy, and I could only get a light sufficient to show that it was the figure of some person"

[Wickerman]

Remember, this all stems from the the simple point that Schwartz' second man cannot emerge from the doorway of the Nelson Beer House as he does in The Star account, as the place closed it's doors at midnight, and Schwartz is on Berner Street at 12:45.

That argument is based on a false premise.
The police account describes a man "standing, lighting his pipe", the press version describes a man coming "out of the doorway", not out of the Beerhouse. There is no indication the Beerhouse was open, that is just a false assumption.

There is no wind or rain at this time:

I quoted from the weather conditions for Sept 30th, a chart created by Dave Yost. There was 0.27 inch of rain over Whitechapel.

All your subsequent questions are irrelevant as the basis for asking them was false to begin with.

[Wickerman]

Apart from the arrogance of dismissing Dave Yost's dissertation out of hand, in favour of his own interpretation, I find it interesting that Wickerman has now made the credibility of Israel Schwartz' story dependent on the credibility of .... Matthew Packer.

Dave Yost was a regular on Casebook back in the late 90's. Both he & I agreed over Packer, but disagreed over that 11:30 timing. Stride cannot be in two places at the same time.
I disagreed then and I disagree now, I have not seen any reason to change. If you cannot contribute anything new then what is there to discuss?

I asked about Schwartz because I have rarely ever mentioned him, I'm not altogether sure Schwartz was not mistaken that night, but I've never promoted his claim as any serious evidence, so I don't see a need for me to defend his claims.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It doesn't really matter what the dissertation says, Packer saw Stride with a man. We know from witness Best & Gardiner that Stride was outside the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00pm, so she wasn't buying grapes from Packer at 11:00pm.

Packer closed up at 12:30, while Stride was in Berner St. with a man carrying a package of grapes. PC Smith saw Stride at 12:35, with a man carrying a package.


Why?

Apart from the arrogance of dismissing Dave Yost's dissertation out of hand, in favour of his own interpretation, I find it interesting that Wickerman has now made the credibility of Israel Schwartz' story dependent on the credibility of .... Matthew Packer.

Remember, this all stems from the the simple point that Schwartz' second man cannot emerge from the doorway of the Nelson Beer House as he does in The Star account, as the place closed it's doors at midnight, and Schwartz is on Berner Street at 12:45.

There is no wind or rain at this time:

William Marshall: A juryman. - How long were you standing at the door? - From 11:30 to 12.
A juryman. - Did it rain then? - No, it did not rain until nearly 3 o'clock.

Dr Blackwell: It was a very mild night and was not raining at the time. There was no wet on deceased's clothing.

Yet Wickerman would have us believe that the second man (Pipeman) was sheltering from the rain (or wind and rain), near the beer house doorway, because Matthew Packer said he closed up shop because of the rain, therefore it must have been raining at the time of the Schwartz incident.

Perhaps the second man were actually the beer house proprietor (I believe his name was Louis Hagens), who had unlocked the doors and stood just outside them at 12:45.
DJA certainly seems to think so:

The bar owner is interested in stopping the manhandling of Stride.

Lipsky might have been Liz flee!

In that case, Schwartz' second man should have been very easy for the police to identify, but he wasn't.
That's the first big issue.

The second being; what the hell happens when the bar owner, carrying a knife, confronts the tipsy man who has assaulted Stride?
What happens to Knifeman? What happens to Tipsy Man? What happens to Stride?
Why doesn't Sarah Diemschutz hear the quarrel, as it is described in the Star? Or indeed, anyone else in the vicinity?

The third being?
If Knifeman walks toward Tipsy Man, and not Schwartz, why does Israel feel the need to flee a situation he is already well away from?

Once you've answered those questions to your satisfaction, can you (that is, anyone), tell me what happened to the man carrying the paper parcel?

[DJA]

William Marshall reported a likely Stride sighting opposite 58 Berner Street ~ 11.45pm.

Tends to support Packer selling grapes ~ 11.30pm.

[Wickerman]

If anyone cares to read about the rain on the night, there is a dissertation covering this.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...ostpacker.html

The author concludes that Packer closed up shop owing to the rain, but this around was at around 11.30pm.

It doesn't really matter what the dissertation says, Packer saw Stride with a man. We know from witness Best & Gardiner that Stride was outside the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00pm, so she wasn't buying grapes from Packer at 11:00pm.

Packer closed up at 12:30, while Stride was in Berner St. with a man carrying a package of grapes. PC Smith saw Stride at 12:35, with a man carrying a package.

Please provide a scenario that gets Schwartz out of trouble. This is important!

Why?

[DJA]

There was no rain at the time Schwartz claims to have walked down Berner Street, but supposing there was, why doesn't Pipeman stay under his little shelter when Schwartz is walking by?

The bar owner is interested in stopping the manhandling of Stride.

Lipsky might have been Liz flee!

[DJA]

Xanthelasma

Severity varies.

Post 105 contains a link to Addison Gull Syndrome.

Autoimmune problem arising from rheumatic fever in Eddowes' case.
Strep takes over from good gut flora,disrupting digestion of lipids.
Also happens with neurasthenia,chronic fatigue syndrome,fibromyalgia,etc.Often causes myofascial pain due to lack of amino acids.

Research here in Oz copyrighted by ex Newcastle University professors.

Causes a dozen or more diseases.

"Prosector's" area of expertise.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If you were a pipe smoker you wouldn't find it unusual to step into a doorway to light the pipe. Though, in this case we can't be sure it was a pipe he was carrying. Very few witnesses mention rain, yet the weather conditions for Whitechapel show 0.27 inch of rain.
We know it can rain on one side of a street and not on the other, showers may have been sporadic, it doesn't matter. The point is, it was raining to some degree. You may not like Packer, but he was right about this fact.

If anyone cares to read about the rain on the night, there is a dissertation covering this.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...ostpacker.html

The author concludes that Packer closed up shop owing to the rain, but this around was at around 11.30pm.
The Schwartz incident was of course at 12:45am.

There was no rain at the time Schwartz claims to have walked down Berner Street, but supposing there was, why doesn't Pipeman stay under his little shelter when Schwartz is walking by?
If he is indeed sheltering from rain as Jon insists, doesn't that make it less likely that he would walk away from the corner, than if it were not raining at all?
Please provide a scenario that gets Schwartz out of trouble. This is important!

[Wickerman]

What was she operated on for?

Xanthelasma

[Wickerman]

So Schwartz' second man was apparently outside alone after midnight, but felt the need to shelter from (at most) very little rain, and then just as Israel was crossing to the boarding school side of Berner Street, the man decided he was in fact man enough to handle the light sprinkle, and proceeded to walk away from his little shelter on the corner, and towards Israel. Israel spotted him, got spooked for no obvious reason, and then ran all the way to the railway arch.

Is that really what you suppose happened?

If you were a pipe smoker you wouldn't find it unusual to step into a doorway to light the pipe. Though, in this case we can't be sure it was a pipe he was carrying. Very few witnesses mention rain, yet the weather conditions for Whitechapel show 0.27 inch of rain.
We know it can rain on one side of a street and not on the other, showers may have been sporadic, it doesn't matter. The point is, it was raining to some degree. You may not like Packer, but he was right about this fact.

[miakaal4]

Jt was apparently raining heavily when Lawende and Co wandered home.

[DJA]