Coincidence?

[DJA]

That looks like it's no.13 to me.
If you put 52 into Google maps it does point there, but so do lots of numbers.



Sarah seems to have lived at no.4, I don't think the 52 refers to the address.
The census only goes up to no.36

You are correct.

Browser over scan.

[Simon Wood]

Eddowes' inquest—

Crawford: "Seeing the date on the tickets, cannot you recollect when the pawning took place?"

John Kelly: "I cannot say, I am so muddled up. It was either Friday or Saturday."

The Coroner: "Had you been drinking when the pawning took place?"

John Kelly: "Yes."

How could he and Eddowes have been drinking before the pawning took place? They had no money.

Next witness—

Frederick William Wilkinson: "Kelly was not in the habit of drinking, and I never saw him the worse for drink."

[JeffHamm]

How many Gustafsdotters in Spitalfields? How many Strides, for that matter? How many people had a long-term partner called Gustafsdotter/Gustafson or Stride? How likely was it that someone would randomly choose a pseudonym as uncommon as Gustafsdotter or Stride? How many people would even have heard of someone with those names?

Now, how many Kellys were there in that heavily-settled-by-Irish district? The rest follows...

The Kelly portion of Eddowes' alias doesn't require there be many other Kelly's, given her partner's last name was Kelly. That name has a direct link to her personally already, so no need to look elsewhere. Mary Ann seems a common name, and shows up in victims (Mary Ann Nichols) and non-victims (Mary Ann Connolly). As a randomly chosen name, the combination is not unusual. Moreover, the only time she's known to have used it is when giving her name to the police to get out of the drunk tank. So unless JtR was there, in the police station, at the time she used it, there seems no way for JtR to confuse Catherine Eddowes, alias Mary Ann Kelly with Mary Jane Kelly. The changing to Jane Kelly, without the Mary, when she pawned the boots, also seems to be a name, used only once, that again we have to argue that JtR might then have been in the pawn shop to overhear this (if the name was even spoken aloud, she probably just wrote it on the ticket). So again, these singular instances of her using common names like Mary Ann or Jane, combined with her partner's last name, are known to us but there does not seem to be any possible way for JtR to have become aware of that information other than to have been in the police station or the pawn shop at the time she used them.

And again, if Catherine Eddowes knows Mary Jane Kelly well enough to use her name as an alias, which would be the case if they are in some conspiracy to blackmail the gov't along with the other victims, then again, it is impossible to conceive of at least one of them not mentioning that they knew the other victims. And giving the name of your co-conspirator to the police also seems a strange thing to do if you're trying to keep your association "hush hush".

While not denying it's a spooky coincidence, I just can't see any way for JtR to become aware that Catherine Eddowes used the name as an alias. And the idea is that she was killed because JtR thought she was Mary Jane Kelly, but for JtR to think she's Mary Jane Kelly JtR has to know she used at least one of those two names. But unless JtR was a policeman, or a pawn broker, or we can show she used one of those aliases regularly (which goes against keeping your association with a co-conspirator secret), then there's no way that JtR could confuse her with the later victim Mary Jane Kelly.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

The question is did she ever intend to get the boots back?

Good question. It's always puzzled me what John did for boots. Was he still barefoot at the inquest? Probably not.
John says he stood in his bare feet whilst Kate pawned the boots, but doesn"t say he had to walk around that way afterwards. Did Kate buy a replacement, cheaper pair while she was in the shop? That might explain why the money they got for them didn't last long. Or did they somehow come by another pair (honestly or otherwise)? Reports say that the roads from the hopping fields were littered with worn-out pairs of boots after the season; did they perhaps cobble together a replacement pair from them, or even a pair worth pawning?

[etenguy]

Kate and John had lived at the same lodging house for seven years, so had a very well established address - 55 Flower and Dean Street.

Thanks Joshua - so that also means she had no reason to go and earn money through prostitution that fateful night either.

[DJA]

That looks like it's no.13 to me.
If you put 52 into Google maps it does point there, but so do lots of numbers.



Sarah seems to have lived at no.4, I don't think the 52 refers to the address.
The census only goes up to no.36

52 did exist,it was listed as providing money orders.

Not subscribed ,so below is my source


Full Transcription of White's Row from the 1891 London Census

[Joshua Rogan]

Perhaps "52 White's Row" was a fake address conjured up by Emily Birrell!

I wouldn't be surprised. Even the name Emily Birrell might have been conjured up too!

[Joshua Rogan]

It's the last house.
Diagonally opposite The Queen's Head.

That looks like it's no.13 to me.
If you put 52 into Google maps it does point there, but so do lots of numbers.

0ccupied by Sarah Freedman,her three children and a boarder in the 1891 census.

Sarah seems to have lived at no.4, I don't think the 52 refers to the address.
The census only goes up to no.36

[DJA]

.... and a landlord who would have put them up on credit.

John was unlikely to wander without footwear.

Kate could go and do as she pleased.

[Joshua Rogan]

I understand why Kate gave the police a false name, but why give a false name to a pawnbroker? I suspect the false address was merely that she had no established address. Did she know Mary Jane Kelly, at least in passing, and was attempting to give her name and address simply our of embarrassment at not have a fixed abode?

Kate and John had lived at the same lodging house for seven years, so had a very well established address - 55 Flower and Dean Street.

[Sam Flynn]

If Annie had pawned items under the Name Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter, _2 Flower and Dean St, within 24 hours of her murder, would that be as coincidental?

How many Gustafsdotters in Spitalfields? How many Strides, for that matter? How many people had a long-term partner called Gustafsdotter/Gustafson or Stride? How likely was it that someone would randomly choose a pseudonym as uncommon as Gustafsdotter or Stride? How many people would even have heard of someone with those names?

Now, how many Kellys were there in that heavily-settled-by-Irish district? The rest follows...

[Michael W Richards]

If she was embarrassed about being homeless, which is a good suggestion and quite possible, she could have made up any name at random... as I believe she did. It's not as if pawnbrokers would, or even could, run an identity check on their customers' contact details. As long as Eddowes produced that ticket to reclaim the boots, it didn't matter whose name or address was on it, or whether the details were fake.

If Annie had pawned items under the Name Elizabeth Stride nee Gustavsdotter, _2 Flower and Dean St, within 24 hours of her murder, would that be as coincidental? Or is that since you can find a lot of Kellys on the 1888 census around it therefore becomes an understandable and obvious alias? The surname isn't the point here, despite the attempts to deflect the argument with that small facet, its the complete given names and surname combined with 99% of a complete address of the very next "ripper" victim in sequence.

[Sam Flynn]

Can you point out where no.52 is, I'm having trouble finding anywhere above 36 in White's Row.

Perhaps "52 White's Row" was a fake address conjured up by Emily Birrell!

[Michael W Richards]

The question is did she ever intend to get the boots back?

Tristan

She said she was going to turn in the killer for a reward, and I suspect on the night of her death she was trying to blackmail that same person, so she might have believed she had money coming in soon. They were Johns only boots after all.

[DJA]

Can you point out where no.52 is, I'm having trouble finding anywhere above 36 in White's Row.

It's the last house.
Diagonally opposite The Queen's Head.

0ccupied by Sarah Freedman,her three children and a boarder in the 1891 census.