Coincidence?

[JeffHamm]

And when people rule that possibility out immediately one has to wonder just what it is that they are looking for. Dorset Street for example also figures fairly prominently. Known to be perhaps the "meanest" street in the EE at the time, likely crawling with ne'er do wells and miscreants.

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew. The anger displayed and the circumstantial evidence point to someone allowed to be in the room with her. Marys killer knew her intimately. So you can all stop trying to extend what has been said about the aliases into that murder, the only way Mary is killed by the same man Kate thinks was killing women, (and perhaps the one that kills her), is if they knew each other. That's not provable...yet...knew of each other, possibly. But the only real clue in the Kelly case is that he was almost certainly someone she knew.

That scenario alone is not consistent with trawling for strangers on the street, one of the pillars of Jack the Ripper. There is very likely a connection between an assumed "Ripper" victim and her killer.

I guess if youre just looking for the linear and don't see the need to deviate based on contradictory facts or evidence, no alternative storyline is going to land. I for one am pleased to be able to avoid the pitfalls of predicting an outcome before having the actual progression nailed down, its easier to see the forest.

Sorry, I'm not following you, and it could just be me. But it sounds like you are arguing for Mary Jane Kelly to have been murdered by someone she knew, who was different from the person who murdered Catherine Eddowes.

But, if that's the case, doesn't that mean that it has to be a coincidence that Eddowes used the alias Mary Ann Kelly, and Jane Kelly, and that Mary Jane Kelly was the "next victim"? If the murderers are different people, then it is, by definition, a coincidence isn't it?

And yet, it seems you're simultaneously arguing for a connection between names and anagrams of addresses?

Or are you saying that the person who knew MJK, also killed Eddowes? And the alias she (Eddowes) used is proof of their connection?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I found it hard to believe the Eddowes/Kelly name overlap was coincidence, but harder to believe in anything else.

Yah, it's spooky, but as we can see, Mary and Ann, and Mary Ann, are very common. If you're going to give a false name, you give something common so it makes you harder to find, and it sounds believable too.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.
- Jeff

I found it hard to believe the Eddowes/Kelly name overlap was coincidence, but harder to believe in anything else.

[JeffHamm]

Im not sure how Mary Ann Cox meets the Jane Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly criteria Jeff. Surnames surely are a factor here. I suggested that it might have been a way to leave a message, albeit encoded primitively, for someone to come looking for her via that name and address if she vanished. Or maybe both her and John knew Mary Jane Kelly. He would have been able to put that together if so. But, he didn't look for her...so does that mean it wasn't a message for John, or that John knew she was already done for and wanted nothing to do with anyone that offed her. He seems weak, in character, and his physical capabilities. She seemed headstrong.

Why are surnames suddenly important? It's all been about splicing in Jane and dropping Ann to produce "Mary Jane Kelly"? And the Kelly connection between Eddowes and Mary Jane would have existed regardless given Eddowes' relationship (so had her alias been Sarah Lee Kelly, that would still provide that surname link despite the obvioius reason why she might choose Kelly in the first place - the overlap with the more flexible options are the more informative ones.

But most importnatly, one doesn't even have to leave Millers Court to find a second 2 / 3 name overlap with one of Eddowes' alias, which indicates how easy it is for that to be coincidental.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

there was one, as far as we know, Mary Jane Kelly, no Jane Kellys, and no Mary Ann Kellys (there was, however, Mary Ann Cox in 5 Miller's Court), so we have a "Mary Ann" at Miller's Court, which matches on two out of three names with Eddowes' alias of Mary Ann Kelly, and doesn't include the easily explainable use of Kelly in the alias since Eddowes partner's last name was Kelly. Splicing in the Jane from a different alias used by Eddowes is a bit of stretch, as how is JtR supposed to have gained awareness of both aliases, worked out that the first name Jane is supposed to replace the other's second name Ann?

Perhaps Mary Ann Cox was the intended victim, and Mary Jane Kelly was chosen by mistake because she was a Mary at Millers Court?

- Jeff

Im not sure how Mary Ann Cox meets the Jane Kelly/Mary Ann Kelly criteria Jeff. Surnames surely are a factor here. I suggested that it might have been a way to leave a message, albeit encoded primitively, for someone to come looking for her via that name and address if she vanished. Or maybe both her and John knew Mary Jane Kelly. He would have been able to put that together if so. But, he didn't look for her...so does that mean it wasn't a message for John, or that John knew she was already done for and wanted nothing to do with anyone that offed her. He seems weak, in character, and his physical capabilities. She seemed headstrong.

[JeffHamm]

And how many Mary Jane Kellys or Mary Ann Kellys or Jane Kellys lived on Dorset again? Context is often absent with posts like this.

there was one, as far as we know, Mary Jane Kelly, no Jane Kellys, and no Mary Ann Kellys (there was, however, Mary Ann Cox in 5 Miller's Court), so we have a "Mary Ann" at Miller's Court, which matches on two out of three names with Eddowes' alias of Mary Ann Kelly, and doesn't include the easily explainable use of Kelly in the alias since Eddowes partner's last name was Kelly. Splicing in the Jane from a different alias used by Eddowes is a bit of stretch, as how is JtR supposed to have gained awareness of both aliases, worked out that the first name Jane is supposed to replace the other's second name Ann?

Perhaps Mary Ann Cox was the intended victim, and Mary Jane Kelly was chosen by mistake because she was a Mary at Millers Court?

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Following on from that, I thought I'd use the Whitechapel Infirmary register data to compile a "Top Twenty" of women's names in that district between 1885 and 1889. I've removed as many "return visits" of the same person to the Infirmary wherever possible, but it's such a large data-set (over 1,400 women) that I can't claim I've weeded them all out. However, given the large sample size, it won't be too wide of the mark:



Note that I've combined the counts for diminutives with their "longhand" name - e.g. "Kate" and "Catherine". Interestingly, "Mary Ann(e)" would have made the Top Twenty on its own, but I've included it in the "Mary" count here, which also includes "Mary X", where "X" could be any other middle name, including Jane.

The big takeway is that nearly one in five women were called "Mary", whether on its own or in combination with a middle name, and was by far the most popular woman's name in the district. It's also noteworthy that all five of the Canonical Five's names appear in the Top Five.

And how many Mary Jane Kellys or Mary Ann Kellys or Jane Kellys lived on Dorset again? Context is often absent with posts like this.

[JeffHamm]

Following on from that, I thought I'd use the Whitechapel Infirmary register data to compile a "Top Twenty" of women's names in that district between 1885 and 1889. I've removed as many "return visits" of the same person to the Infirmary wherever possible, but it's such a large data-set (over 1,400 women) that I can't claim I've weeded them all out. However, given the large sample size, it won't be too wide of the mark:



Note that I've combined the counts for diminutives with their "longhand" name - e.g. "Kate" and "Catherine". Interestingly, "Mary Ann(e)" would have made the Top Twenty on its own, but I've included it in the "Mary" count here, which also includes "Mary X", where "X" could be any other middle name, including Jane.

The big takeway is that nearly one in five women were called "Mary", whether on its own or in combination with a middle name, and was by far the most popular woman's name in the district. It's also noteworthy that all five of the Canonical Five's names appear in the Top Five.

Nice. And that is the same conclusion that one starts to come to when looking at the names associated with the case as well, victims and witnesses, that Mary Ann is really common. You've got a much larger data set, making that conclusions much more sound, as well as provides information about the frequency of other names as well. Good work.

And with that information, the coincidence hypothesis gains support and coupled with the problems (too many, and hopefully obvious) that arise from the various scenerios (hypotheses) that one develops when considering the names are somehow linked to the cause of the sceries (i.e. searching out MJK or Pearly Poll, etc), those ideas become less satisfying despite the fact it's fun to let the creative side run free and speculate connections. In fact, the latter is important to do every now and then as long as one then follows up that step with a careful examination of the consequences of all the speculation - meaning actually put the story to the evidence test. My "Hunt for Pearly Poll", for example, fails that test. For one, it would have been clear to the soldier that Pearly Poll was not considered a reliable witness so his fear of identification should not have been so high as to spark a random series. Second, if he's willing to kill a witness, why no attacks on say Mrs. Long, Schwartz, Hutchinson, or Lawende, Levy, or Harris? (Unless, of course, all of them are mistaken and/or lying?). Third, what's with taking organs if the goal is just to eliminate a witness? Fourth, what happened to his dagger and/or penknife? And so on. Basically, while one can create a story when only considering the names and how they may be linked, that story does not fit with the other evidence we have, it just doesn't make sense, and it always is in competition with the "Just a coinicidence" hypothesis.

And the name frequency data makes the coincidence hypothesis stronger, and it also predicts that witnesses, and others, will also have that name (and we have two of those). Interestingly, there was Maria Coroner (variant of Mary), who is the only known author of a "Jack the Ripper" letter (said JtR was coming to Bradford).

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

If Mary Jane Kelly was killed by someone she knew then there is no way the Ripper would have mistaken Catherine Eddowes for Mary Jane Kelly.

Cant remember ever saying verbally or in print that I thought one could be mistaken for the other, but thanks for quoting my post anyway.

[Fiver]

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew.

If Mary Jane Kelly was killed by someone she knew then there is no way the Ripper would have mistaken Catherine Eddowes for Mary Jane Kelly.

[Fiver]

The mere fact that 6 Dorset Street is mentioned in connection with a "Jane Kelly" is an eyebrow raiser.

'Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset St' appeared on a pawn ticket. lets look at the ways the Ripper could have found that address.

1) The Ripper was in the pawn shop when Eddowes pawned the boots. If so, he knew what Eddowes looked like and would have no reason to specifically target Mary Jane Kelly.

2) The Ripper hears that a woman claimed to know who he was and deliberately tracks her down. After killing Eddowes, he riffles through her pockets, finding the pawn tickets for 'Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row' and 'Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street'. The Ripper then puts both pawn tickets back, without getting any blood on them. If so, he he has no reason to specifically target Emily Birrell or Jane Kelly.

3) As per 2, but Eddowes was just a random victim. Again, this leaves the Ripper with no reason to specifically target Emily Birrell or Jane Kelly.

4) As per 2, but the Ripper reads the 3 October 1888 Irish Times, which mentions the name 'Jane Kelly' and mentions both '6 Dorset Street' and '6 Fashion Street'. Or the 3 October 1888 Morning Advertiser, which mentions the pawn tickets for 'Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row' and 'Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street'. Or reads the 1 October 1888 Evening Standard, or the 1 October 1888 Pall Mall Gazette which said "The names given on the tickets were Emily Burrell and Jane Kelly, and the addresses, Dorset-street and White's-row, Whitechapel, both being fictitious". Again, this leaves the Ripper with no reason to specifically target Emily Birrell or Jane Kelly.

5) Eddowes was a random victim and the Ripper then hears that a woman claimed to know who he was. He is very worried until he reads in the 13 October 1888 East London Observer that the woman was Eddowes, who he already killed by accident. Again, this leaves the Ripper with no reason to specifically target Emily Birrell or Jane Kelly, who the newpapers have said don't even exist.

6) The Ripper becomes paranoid that Catherine Eddowes may have told someone else. The Ripper does not kill the Casual Ward Superintendent of Mile End, who could clearly be found there. The Ripper does not kill witness Frederick William Wilkinson, deputy of the lodging-house at Flower and Dean-street. The Ripper does not kill Eddowes' lover, John Kelly, or her sister, Eliza Gould, or her daughter, Annie Philips, all of whose addresses appeared in the newspaper. The Ripper does not search for 'Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row'. The Ripper does not search for 'Mary Ann Kelly, 6 Fashion Street'. The Ripper only searches for 'Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset St', who the press have already noted does not exist. Even though the Ripper appears to know the areas well enough to have heard that 13 Millers Court used to be 26 Dorset Street, it takes the Ripper 27 days to make his way from #6 to #26.

[Sam Flynn]

...women's names (and, to a lesser extent, men's) were frequently drawn from a limited pool of popular biblical or Judaeo-Christian characters...

Following on from that, I thought I'd use the Whitechapel Infirmary register data to compile a "Top Twenty" of women's names in that district between 1885 and 1889. I've removed as many "return visits" of the same person to the Infirmary wherever possible, but it's such a large data-set (over 1,400 women) that I can't claim I've weeded them all out. However, given the large sample size, it won't be too wide of the mark:



Note that I've combined the counts for diminutives with their "longhand" name - e.g. "Kate" and "Catherine". Interestingly, "Mary Ann(e)" would have made the Top Twenty on its own, but I've included it in the "Mary" count here, which also includes "Mary X", where "X" could be any other middle name, including Jane.

The big takeway is that nearly one in five women were called "Mary", whether on its own or in combination with a middle name, and was by far the most popular woman's name in the district. It's also noteworthy that all five of the Canonical Five's names appear in the Top Five.

[Michael W Richards]

The coincidences in this case keep piling on - the names Mary and Ann were common in that area at that time, but even so, if Elizabeth Stride was not a JtR victim, it does stand out that four victims in a row share one or both of those names. It does make you think there is some pattern to these killings, but if there is, it eludes me.

And when people rule that possibility out immediately one has to wonder just what it is that they are looking for. Dorset Street for example also figures fairly prominently. Known to be perhaps the "meanest" street in the EE at the time, likely crawling with ne'er do wells and miscreants.

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she knew. The anger displayed and the circumstantial evidence point to someone allowed to be in the room with her. Marys killer knew her intimately. So you can all stop trying to extend what has been said about the aliases into that murder, the only way Mary is killed by the same man Kate thinks was killing women, (and perhaps the one that kills her), is if they knew each other. That's not provable...yet...knew of each other, possibly. But the only real clue in the Kelly case is that he was almost certainly someone she knew.

That scenario alone is not consistent with trawling for strangers on the street, one of the pillars of Jack the Ripper. There is very likely a connection between an assumed "Ripper" victim and her killer.

I guess if youre just looking for the linear and don't see the need to deviate based on contradictory facts or evidence, no alternative storyline is going to land. I for one am pleased to be able to avoid the pitfalls of predicting an outcome before having the actual progression nailed down, its easier to see the forest.

[JeffHamm]

Indeed. Of course, women's names (and, to a lesser extent, men's) were frequently drawn from a limited pool of popular biblical or Judaeo-Christian characters, a tradition which persisted into the 20th Century. Thus we have:

Mary, the name of many prominent women in the Gospels (variants Marie, Maria, Marian/Marianne = "Mary Ann(e)")
Anne, Jesus' maternal grandmother in Christian tradition (also Anna, a prophetess in the Gospel of Luke)
Catherine/Katherine, a popular early Christian saint (variants Cathy, Kate, Katy and Kitty)
Jane, derived from French Je(h)anne, feminine form of biblical John (whence also Joan/Joanne/Joanna/Johanna)
Janet/Jeanette, diminutive of Jeanne (see Jane)
Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist
Martha, the sister of Lazarus
Sarah, wife of Abraham and mother of Isaac
Julia, a citizen of Rome addressed by Paul in his letter to the Romans
Margaret, name of a number of popular Christian saints

Against that backdrop, it isn't in the least bit surprising that these names, and their variants, crop up again and again among the victims and witnesses... even the suspects, if we include Mary Pearcey!

Yes, perhaps I've not been as clear as I should be. While etenguy and I have been playing with the names, starting from the idea that there was some connection between Katherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly due to the use of "Mary Ann Kelly" and "Jane Kelly", those connections usually were in the direction of "Eddowes was mistaken for MJK, who was the real target" and then spiral on into things like Royal Conspiracies. We wanted to see if there was anything sensible that one could come up with, that included a connection based upon the names being something other than a coincidence, and see if it would hold up any better. That started to expand into noting all the Mary's and Ann's, with a fair few "Mary Ann"s as well, which meant the explanation had to expand to include them all. That got me to Mary Ann Connolly/Pearly Poll, so I think if one is going to say the names "Mary Ann Kelly" and "Mary Jane Kelly" is some sort of against all the odds type thing, then I think one then woudl have to go right back to Pearly Poll, since the "against all odds" takes us right back to her. And from that, the most obvious story is that the killer of Martha Tabram is hunting Pearly Poll/Mary Ann Connolly.

But that story doesn't make sense given all the other evidence, like mutilations, or even the idea of someone just killing all the Mary's they come across rather than, you know, finding out if you got the right one.

And if that story doesn't make any sense, then noting all the Mary Ann's, and such, ends up suggesting that for Catherine Eddowes to pick "Mary Ann Kelly" as an alias isn't really against all odds at all.

It's being left with a coincidence as the only surviving explanation by concluding the best theory that gets derived from the "linked by names" idea is still not a very good one.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Oh, and there's also Mary Ann Cox, neighbor of Mary Jane Kelly.

Indeed. Of course, women's names (and, to a lesser extent, men's) were frequently drawn from a limited pool of popular biblical or Judaeo-Christian characters, a tradition which persisted into the 20th Century. Thus we have:

Mary, the name of many prominent women in the Gospels (variants Marie, Maria, Marian/Marianne = "Mary Ann(e)")
Anne, Jesus' maternal grandmother in Christian tradition (also Anna, a prophetess in the Gospel of Luke)
Catherine/Katherine, a popular early Christian saint (variants Cathy, Kate, Katy and Kitty)
Jane, derived from French Je(h)anne, feminine form of biblical John (whence also Joan/Joanne/Joanna/Johanna)
Janet/Jeanette, diminutive of Jeanne (see Jane)
Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist
Martha, the sister of Lazarus
Sarah, wife of Abraham and mother of Isaac
Julia, a citizen of Rome addressed by Paul in his letter to the Romans
Margaret, name of a number of popular Christian saints

Against that backdrop, it isn't in the least bit surprising that these names, and their variants, crop up again and again among the victims and witnesses... even the suspects, if we include Mary Pearcey!