Coincidence?

[c.d.]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

Hello Trapperologist,

I don't think any of the points you cited are significant on their own but take on that appearance when listed together.

There could be a very simple explanation for using an alias. She might have been on the run from an abusive husband or boyfriend or may have been trying to duck legal troubles.

She was identified by Barnett.

Were her relatives contacted? I don't know but it is easy to see why they might not have wanted to be in the middle of it all. "Hey, aren't you the parents of that prostitute that was butchered like an animal"?

Allowances for unpaid rent is easily explainable as well. The pool of people that McCarthy rented to probably had a hand to mouth existence. I am sure it was not unusual for a few of his tenants to fall behind in their rent. Mary probably had a history of falling behind but then paying up. If he were to evict her there is a probability that he might end up renting to someone who falls behind but can't pay up. It was simply the nature of the beast.

I simply don't see any "strangeness" that can't be explained.

c.d.

[DJA]

Decoration.

Already know

[Trapperologist]

Seemed she had entered her own witness protection scheme.
Quite possibly a whistleblower while at the gay house.

What would she be doing in a gay house?

I do however believe she was "subsidized".
Guess who I think subsidized her!

[DJA]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

Seemed she had entered her own witness protection scheme.
Quite possibly a whistleblower while at the gay house.
The Labouchere Amendment was to became an important tool against gross indecency.
Might have changed her name slightly,if her visit to France included Le Chabanais which was run by the Irish born Madame Kelly (real surname being Joannet).


Not to mention her landlord,known as a benefactor to the London Hospital,allowing his door to be broken by police when a simple reach through the window would suffice.

Funny inquest.
Mary Ann Kelly,29,was laid in the mortuary of the church that she was baptized in.
Guess who the Vestry medical officer was!

[Trapperologist]

Isn't it the point that basically everyone knew and remembered Mary Kelly? She supposedly staked out the front of the Ten Bells as her own corner and would fight for the spot. There were even people who "thought" they knew her and obviously didn't and had Elvis sightings of the wrong Elvis.

There's a lot of high strangeness connected with Mary - unknown origin, never identified, relatives didn't show up at the funeral, funny inquest, allowances for unpaid rent. Something's going on. Did she have access to an allowance from her generous "gentleman" that could be construed as blackmail but wasn't?

[etenguy]

But the names (plural) don't match and neither do the addresses (plural). It's hardly a coincidence if you have to munge together both names/addresses, disregard the "Fashion Street", drop the "Ann" from "Mary Ann" and swap it with the "Jane" from the pawn ticket, add a "twenty" to both addresses that wasn't there to begin with and ignore the fact that Miller's Court is never mentioned in either address, despite the residents and visitors to Miller's Court referring to it as precisely that, and not "26 Dorset Street" at all.

I really do appreciate the point you make. Nevertheless, I still find the coincidence startling. That Catherine Eddowes, when drunk or at least hungover, may have muddled the details of her alias a little does not surprise me. I realise that you have had this conversation a number of times with a number of people (based on posts in past threads) and you are reconciled the coincidence with its flaws is just that. I am still exploring and trying to convince myself either way. In the little thought experiment I played with above, the alias differences you mention don't matter, it would be sufficiently close for the murderer to act (but I only suggest that scenario as a piece of imaginative thinking not as a serious explanation). To be honest, I think you are likely correct but my head and heart are in two different places and I don't yet feel that.

[Sam Flynn]

I find the name and address coincidence just a bit too coincidental.

But the names (plural) don't match and neither do the addresses (plural). It's hardly a coincidence if you have to munge together both names/addresses, disregard the "Fashion Street", drop the "Ann" from "Mary Ann" and swap it with the "Jane" from the pawn ticket, add a "twenty" to both addresses that wasn't there to begin with and ignore the fact that Miller's Court is never mentioned in either address, despite the residents and visitors to Miller's Court referring to it as precisely that, and not "26 Dorset Street" at all.

[etenguy]

Oh, actually, that's an interesting idea that solves many of the issues. If I understand correctly, though, it implies Catherine was heading off to meet JtR to collect blackmail money when she was killed. That suggests their meeting was pre-arranged, which is unlikely. For one, when would she have arranged for this meeting, given she's been drunk and in gaol all day? and other such issues that go along with the "pre-arranged meeting". But, still, it does minimize some of the self inflating bubble that becomes the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is good to see and nicely done.

I think what you suggest leads to issues related to "Kate and JtR had a pre-arranged meeting in Mitre Square for 1:30 am", which crops up in various forms, and doesn't garner much support from the evidence, but it's not as out of this world as the Royal Conspiracy lines tend to go.

So, while I'm not buying it, I like it and think it's a clever notion with regards to how Eddowes and Kelly may be connected in a way, but it turns on its head the typical idea that MJK was the prime target all along and that Eddowes was a mistaken identity case, and in fact Eddowes was the intended target but due to the alias issue, he thinks he's made a mistake, etc.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff - there is absolutely no reason you should buy in to it, it is purely my imagination and there is no evidence to support it. I just wanted to move away from the Royal Conspiracy Theory. It is also shot through with holes. Could I refine the idea into a plausible theory? I think I could but I do not intend to try, it was just a thought experiment. There are all sorts of scenarios we might imagine but without some evidence to support them they are nothing more than that.

I will tell you where I am. I find the name and address coincidence just a bit too coincidental. I don't believe some grand conspiracy theory results from that coincidence but I believe it might have some part to play in the murders. Of course, it may not. I just haven't reached the point that I can reconcile this level of coincidence, yet.

[JeffHamm]

Hi JeffHamm - your post was perfectly clear and well argued, but on this occasion I feel there is possibly a different conclusion to consider also.

I think the Royal Conspiracy Theory overshadows the thinking around the name and address coincidence between Eddowes alias and Kelly. It is possible to speculate a different scenario which is, dare I say more plausible, and does not involve a grand conspiracy.

I suggest the following as one such possibility. It is not what I think happened, nor is there any evidence it is true, it is simply a thought experiment to demonstrate a possibility that answers the questions which have been posed in this thread - namely:
1. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why were the other unfortunates murdered?
2. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why did the murderer not know what she looked like?
3. Why would someone wish to kill Mary Jane Kelly specifically, other than for the reason provided by the Royal Conspiracy theory.



The above is shot through with holes and I have no intention of trying to tighten it, it is there merely to suggest that if there was a link between the alias and MJK's name, and we can establish what that is, it may lead to finding some evidence which helps explain what happened and we would not necessarily have to rely on a grand conspiracy to do so.

Oh, actually, that's an interesting idea that solves many of the issues. If I understand correctly, though, it implies Catherine was heading off to meet JtR to collect blackmail money when she was killed. That suggests their meeting was pre-arranged, which is unlikely. For one, when would she have arranged for this meeting, given she's been drunk and in gaol all day? and other such issues that go along with the "pre-arranged meeting". But, still, it does minimize some of the self inflating bubble that becomes the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is good to see and nicely done.

I think what you suggest leads to issues related to "Kate and JtR had a pre-arranged meeting in Mitre Square for 1:30 am", which crops up in various forms, and doesn't garner much support from the evidence, but it's not as out of this world as the Royal Conspiracy lines tend to go.

So, while I'm not buying it, I like it and think it's a clever notion with regards to how Eddowes and Kelly may be connected in a way, but it turns on its head the typical idea that MJK was the prime target all along and that Eddowes was a mistaken identity case, and in fact Eddowes was the intended target but due to the alias issue, he thinks he's made a mistake, etc.

- Jeff

[etenguy]

But once one starts to put a significance on the use of the alias "Mary Ann Kelly" as suggesting a reason for why Catherine Eddowes was killed in the first place, one has to argue that MJK was the intended victim. And once you do that, it all snowballs into la-la land pretty quickly in my view, which is why I end up opting for the coincidence interpretation in the end. Exploring something doesn't mean one has to accept it in the end after all.

Anyway, not sure how clear I'm being. Hope that makes some sense, and of course, you're not obliged to agree with my reasoning. - Jeff

Hi JeffHamm - your post was perfectly clear and well argued, but on this occasion I feel there is possibly a different conclusion to consider also.

I think the Royal Conspiracy Theory overshadows the thinking around the name and address coincidence between Eddowes alias and Kelly. It is possible to speculate a different scenario which is, dare I say more plausible, and does not involve a grand conspiracy.

I suggest the following as one such possibility. It is not what I think happened, nor is there any evidence it is true, it is simply a thought experiment to demonstrate a possibility that answers the questions which have been posed in this thread - namely:
1. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why were the other unfortunates murdered?
2. If Mary Jane Kelly was the intended victim, why did the murderer not know what she looked like?
3. Why would someone wish to kill Mary Jane Kelly specifically, other than for the reason provided by the Royal Conspiracy theory.

We know that Catherine Eddowes stated "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." For the sake of this thought experiment, let us accept that is true. Catherine then communicates with the murderer in order to try and extort money. The murderer has no idea who this woman is but learns she goes by the name Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street. He decides she needs to be eliminated and kills her. He then learns from the papers that he has killed someone called Catherine Eddowes and wonders if he killed the right person. Learning of a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset street, he decides he needs to kill her just in case he mixed them up. Best way to make sure he does not make another mistake is to kill her at home.

The above is shot through with holes and I have no intention of trying to tighten it, it is there merely to suggest that if there was a link between the alias and MJK's name, and we can establish what that is, it may lead to finding some evidence which helps explain what happened and we would not necessarily have to rely on a grand conspiracy to do so.

[Fiver]

There is the possibility that Eddowes proposed cutting the real 29 year old Mary Ann Kelly out of black mail proceedings,being unaware of Stride's earlier murder.

There is no evidence that any of the Ripper's victims were blackmailing anyone. The only theory that claims the victims were involved in blackmail is the nonsensical 'Royal conspiracy' of Joseph Gorman/Stephen Knight - an admitted hoax full of provably false claims that requires the killers, victims, and authorities to all act in as stupid a manner as possible.

[Fiver]

I would say that for myself I never suggested "the ripper" killed Kate or Mary, so for me that's not a problem. I do suggest that Kates aliases... including 99% of Mary Jane Kellys full name, and address...may well suggest she knew Mary. Perhaps she intended on selling that information along with her silence.

Catherine Eddowes gave the addresses of 6 Dorset Street and 6 Fashion Street.

Mary Jane Kelly lived at 13 Miller's Court.

That is not 99% of Mary Jane Kelly's address, it has nothing in common. There is no evidence that Eddowes knew Kelly. The is no evidence that Eddowes was trying to sell information about Mary Jane Kelly to anyone,

[DJA]

'cause John Kelly's boots sorta fizzled out?

[c.d.]

How in the world are we discussing various aspects of a blackmail plot when we have zero evidence of a blackmail plot in the first place?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Thanks Joshua - so that also means she had no reason to go and earn money through prostitution that fateful night either.

She probably lead a hand to mouth existence. So even if she had no reason to prostitute herself that particular night we have no way of knowing how she would react to being approached by a paying customer. Prostitutes had to make hay while the sun was shining.

c.d.