Coincidence?

[Sam Flynn]

At the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street was the soup kitchen complex at 6 Fashion Street.

Investigations are solved by linking coincidences,not denying them.

Investigations certainly aren't solved by inventing linkages that are not there, or stretching definitions to make things fit. "6 Dorset Street" is not "_6 Dorset Street" or "26 Dorset Street" (still less "Miller's Court"), "Mary Ann Kelly" is not "Mary Jane Kelly", and "Fashion Street" is not "the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street".

And, again, I'm not denying things, I'm accepting them for the rather obvious and easily explicable coincidences that they are.

[DJA]

How wide does a rugged up man's shoulders need to be to earn the description "broad shoulder man" and how would that man get them that way?

In my experience ..... rowers,swimmers,lifesavers ......weight lifters,gym junkies ...... some construction workers,navies ...... even then,fairly rare in the street.

How about a sapper in the Royal Engineers ..... by the name of Frank Carter.

At the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street was the soup kitchen complex at 6 Fashion Street.

Investigations are solved by linking coincidences,not denying them.

[Sam Flynn]

Eddowes returned for financial gain.

According to only one source, and that from a person unrelated to her and quite possibly a made-up story. If, as the story goes, she'd returned to claim the reward, you'd have thought that John Kelly would have known about it and mentioned it, but the reason he gave for their return to the East End was simply because their hop-picking expedition had been a flop.

She is linked to Kelly by name

Her long-term partner's name was Kelly; that's the only tangible link we have, and it's by far the most likely reason for her having used that surname at the pawnbroker's and police station. We know that she was known as "Catherine Kelly" to people around her and, as she'd been going steady with John Kelly for seven years, it's a safe bet that she'd have used this epithet long before the advent of the Ripper murders - indeed, before Mary Jane Kelly had even arrived in the East End.

and Stride by BS Man and 6 Fashion Street.

Since we don't know who BS Man was, I can't see how we can make any connection via him to Catherine Eddowes. Furthermore, I can't recall a link between Elizabeth Stride and 6 Fashion Street; it was said that she lived (at some point) in Fashion Street, but as far as I remember no house number was given.

Hundreds of people lived in Fashion Street, and even more in Dorset Street, as they were very popular with people of Eddowes' social standing. The fact that Eddowes used these streets in her fake addresses doesn't carry very much weight, as they were "obvious" streets to choose if someone of Eddowes' class wanted to give false details.

[DJA]

What do you expect them to say?

Eddowes returned for financial gain.
She is linked to Kelly by name and Stride by BS Man and 6 Fashion Street.

Do you really think those were five random murders?

Look at the evidence.

[etenguy]

We should beware of taking anything from Barnett as 'fact'

Hi packers stem

We do have to be wary of some of the witnesses and you are quite right to point out that Barnett was not necessarily the most reliable (I wonder what that says about his identification of MJK, if anything?). However, I think JeffHamm makes a good point that none of the victims mentioned knowing any of the other victims and it is surely something someone would have mentioned in the circumstances if they had known each other.

[Trapperologist]

Exactly, Packer. The City Missionary said Mary came to their meetings and he "rescued" one of her friends. A Salvation Army Captain also said Mary came to a service. Mary made herself known and was very memorable. I still remember the standout from when I did some volunteer missionary work among the homeless. As for Catherine: if Mary didn't know her real last name, would she have even recognized "Kate" or "Catherine" or "Mary Ann" from the newspaper descriptions even if she knew her?

[packers stem]

I checked back on my sources. The London City Mission Magazine said their missionary knew "some" of the victims. I guess I make the assumption, fair or not, that one of the other ones was Catherine Eddowes since her sister lived across the street from the Thrawl St. Mission where he had services and that's where he would have met Mary and got to know her. His services were once a week so Mary and Catherine couldn't miss each other.
"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Daily News Nov 12th

. "There is no doubt," said a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you had met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and decently dressed and looked quite nice and respectable." "You have been at this work a good many years?" "Seven years in this neighbourhood." "And do you find the state of things improving in any degree?" "Well, I think there is a little improvement - some little improvement. I have been out and about the streets at all hours, and have sometimes found a shocking state of things. I remember a year or two back going out one night and finding eleven women who had crept for shelter into the staircase of one house. They were quite destitute, and were sleeping here. The opening of the refuges of one sort and another has done something to reduce the numbers found in this way, but there is still a deplorable state of things."

[packers stem]

Not only was there so few Mary (or Jane for that matter) Kelly's around........ seems Emily Birrell was an unknown too ....
Was anything John Kelly said true I wonder.

Morning advertiser 3rd

Two City police-constables yesterday morning supplied what is at present the clearest clue to the identity of one of the women murdered. Having seen at the mortuary in Golden-lane the mutilated body of the woman murdered in Mitre-square, they expressed to their superior officers the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago for drunkenness. Owing to the dreadfully disfigured condition of the face they could not, however, be absolutely certain. The woman to whom the constables refer was not charged with any offence, but when detained at the station she gave the name of Kelly, and said she was living at 6, Fashion-street. It will be remembered that one of the two pawntickets picked up near the scene of the murder stated that Jane Kelly, of 6, Dorset-street, had pawned a pair of boots on the 28th ult. with Mr. Joseph Jones, of Church-street, Spitalfields, for half a crown. The other pawnticket was dated the 31st of August last, and showed that with the same pawnbroker a flannel shirt had been pawned in the name of Emily Burrell, 32, White's-row. It was at once remarked that it was strange the name Kelly should become associated with the murdered woman through such different channels, and the detectives continued their inquiries with the object of ascertaining if anything was known of a woman named Kelly at any of the addresses given. No one in Fashion-street knew anything of such a person, whilst the people living at the addresses in White's-row and Dorset-street were also ignorant of any such names.

[packers stem]

it seems to me that since Joe Barnett read the news about the murders to Mary, that if she at least knew any of the prior victims even in passing, she would have said something to him. It seems inconceivable that would not have come up in their conversations, and Barnett would have passed that on to the police when he mentioned how he read the news to her. The complete lack of any indication that such a conversation, or any mention of even so much as an "Oh I've heard of her ..." type comment, from Kelly, suggests there was no social connection between Mary and any of the prior victims. Also, the fact that Joe Barnett does not himself indicate any recognition or familiarity with any of the prior victims also suggests that there was no connection. None of the partners of any of the victims make any comment that could even remotely suggest acquaintanceship between victims, let alone close connections. it's possible only in the sense we can conceive of it because the evidence tells us they were living in the same area of London. But there were a lot of people living transitory lives in that area, and it is not possible to derive a connection between the victims from the evidence we have, and such a relationship predicts that certain types of evidence should be available to us in the statements we have - such as an indication of any sort of a later victim showing recognition of the previous one. And that is entirely absent other than in the links of speculation we can make. But those are just hypotheses, they are not in and of themselves data.

- Jeff

We should beware of taking anything from Barnett as 'fact'

[Sam Flynn]

I checked back on my sources. The London City Mission Magazine said their missionary knew "some" of the victims. I guess I make the assumption, fair or not, that one of the other ones was Catherine Eddowes since her sister lived across the street from the Thrawl St. Mission where he had services and that's where he would have met Mary and got to know her. His services were once a week so Mary and Catherine couldn't miss each other.
"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Thanks for that. However, we don't know that Mary Kelly attended the services, or that she was even particularly religious - she was, after all, a rather high-spirited young girl (to put it mildly). There's no indication that Eddowes would have, either. Even if they both did, then we don't know that they ever attended at the same time, or even within the same year.

[packers stem]

she was known to others by the name of Kelly.
.

No ,she wasn't .....
Only the press prior to the inquest .
An etiquette presumption on their part

[DJA]

"All the victims of the recent crimes in the East End lived in this district, and frequented the common lodging houses which are situated within its boundaries. Some of them were well known to the Missionary, especially the last of the series,..." LCMM, Nov 1

Given that Mary Ann Kelly was murdered Nov 9,he is referring to Eddowes.

[DJA]

In relation to Joe Barnett,has anyone considered that he was possibly autistic?

[DJA]

I apologise for being a bit slow, but I don't understand your post. Are you suggesting Eddowes was sourcing victims for the murderer?

Nope.

Just giving Trapper a bit extra info.

Ironically pretty much what I posted on the fairly recent "film scene" thread.

I am aware that City Mission did not usually open for Sunday breakfast until Winter,however it was a very cold and wet start to Autumn.

[etenguy]

it seems to me that since Joe Barnett read the news about the murders to Mary, that if she at least knew any of the prior victims even in passing, she would have said something to him. It seems inconceivable that would not have come up in their conversations, and Barnett would have passed that on to the police when he mentioned how he read the news to her. The complete lack of any indication that such a conversation, or any mention of even so much as an "Oh I've heard of her ..." type comment, from Kelly, suggests there was no social connection between Mary and any of the prior victims. Also, the fact that Joe Barnett does not himself indicate any recognition or familiarity with any of the prior victims also suggests that there was no connection. None of the partners of any of the victims make any comment that could even remotely suggest acquaintanceship between victims, let alone close connections. it's possible only in the sense we can conceive of it because the evidence tells us they were living in the same area of London. But there were a lot of people living transitory lives in that area, and it is not possible to derive a connection between the victims from the evidence we have, and such a relationship predicts that certain types of evidence should be available to us in the statements we have - such as an indication of any sort of a later victim showing recognition of the previous one. And that is entirely absent other than in the links of speculation we can make. But those are just hypotheses, they are not in and of themselves data.

- Jeff

A very good point, well put.