Coincidence?

[etenguy]

We should beware of taking anything from Barnett as 'fact'

Hi packers stem

We do have to be wary of some of the witnesses and you are quite right to point out that Barnett was not necessarily the most reliable (I wonder what that says about his identification of MJK, if anything?). However, I think JeffHamm makes a good point that none of the victims mentioned knowing any of the other victims and it is surely something someone would have mentioned in the circumstances if they had known each other.

[DJA]

What do you expect them to say?

Eddowes returned for financial gain.
She is linked to Kelly by name and Stride by BS Man and 6 Fashion Street.

Do you really think those were five random murders?

Look at the evidence.

[Sam Flynn]

Eddowes returned for financial gain.

According to only one source, and that from a person unrelated to her and quite possibly a made-up story. If, as the story goes, she'd returned to claim the reward, you'd have thought that John Kelly would have known about it and mentioned it, but the reason he gave for their return to the East End was simply because their hop-picking expedition had been a flop.

She is linked to Kelly by name

Her long-term partner's name was Kelly; that's the only tangible link we have, and it's by far the most likely reason for her having used that surname at the pawnbroker's and police station. We know that she was known as "Catherine Kelly" to people around her and, as she'd been going steady with John Kelly for seven years, it's a safe bet that she'd have used this epithet long before the advent of the Ripper murders - indeed, before Mary Jane Kelly had even arrived in the East End.

and Stride by BS Man and 6 Fashion Street.

Since we don't know who BS Man was, I can't see how we can make any connection via him to Catherine Eddowes. Furthermore, I can't recall a link between Elizabeth Stride and 6 Fashion Street; it was said that she lived (at some point) in Fashion Street, but as far as I remember no house number was given.

Hundreds of people lived in Fashion Street, and even more in Dorset Street, as they were very popular with people of Eddowes' social standing. The fact that Eddowes used these streets in her fake addresses doesn't carry very much weight, as they were "obvious" streets to choose if someone of Eddowes' class wanted to give false details.

[DJA]

How wide does a rugged up man's shoulders need to be to earn the description "broad shoulder man" and how would that man get them that way?

In my experience ..... rowers,swimmers,lifesavers ......weight lifters,gym junkies ...... some construction workers,navies ...... even then,fairly rare in the street.

How about a sapper in the Royal Engineers ..... by the name of Frank Carter.

At the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street was the soup kitchen complex at 6 Fashion Street.

Investigations are solved by linking coincidences,not denying them.

[Sam Flynn]

At the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street was the soup kitchen complex at 6 Fashion Street.

Investigations are solved by linking coincidences,not denying them.

Investigations certainly aren't solved by inventing linkages that are not there, or stretching definitions to make things fit. "6 Dorset Street" is not "_6 Dorset Street" or "26 Dorset Street" (still less "Miller's Court"), "Mary Ann Kelly" is not "Mary Jane Kelly", and "Fashion Street" is not "the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street".

And, again, I'm not denying things, I'm accepting them for the rather obvious and easily explicable coincidences that they are.

[DJA]

There was no Mary Jane Kelly.

However there was a local 29 year old Mary Ann Kelly with a family that fits Barnett's description.

[DJA]

"Fashion Street" is not "the rear of the building that included 32 Flower and Dean Street".

The Jewish soup kitchen complex around the admin at 6 Fashion Street is certainly at the rear of the building that housed 32 Flower and Dean Street where Stride resided.
Clearly visible from any upstairs rear window and vice versa.
Try looking at a map.

Frank Carter as BS Man?

By coincidence ..... the Royal Engineers was Warren's old outfit.

[Michael W Richards]

Again, she didn't say "blank 6" Dorset Street, just "6 Dorset Street". She also gave "6 Fashion Street" as her address on the previous day, and a different name.



Even the coincidence is hardly worth writing home about. Both the names she gave were extremely common, both streets were renowned for their doss-houses, her boyfriend's name was Kelly, and she was known to others by the name of Kelly.

If Kate wanted to "reveal" anything about a link to Mary Jane Kelly, then why didn't she use that name, and why didn't she give her address as Miller's Court? What on earth was the point of "implicating" a real person in the trifling acts of pawning of a pair of boots and being drunk on the streets? And if, for some utterly unfathomable reason, she wanted to "implicate" the real Mary Jane Kelly of 13 Miller's Court, why be so cryptic about it?

This conspiratorial woo-woo makes no sense whatsoever.

As I said Sam, if she was to disappear when she heads off to her "meeting" then someone like Kelly for example might follow those breadcrumbs to Fashion St, then Dorset..where he may have then learned of the actual Mary Jane Kelly in 26 Dorset St. Didnt Corrie Maxwell live at #6...and she claimed she knew Mary. A direct clue might endanger Mary. Again, one must presume she did know Mary by the choices in aliases for this to be a workable concept.

[Sam Flynn]

Didnt Corrie Maxwell live at #6...

She lived at #14.

[Sam Flynn]

As I said Sam, if she was to disappear when she heads off to her "meeting"

Why should she disappear? And, if she did, why leave a trail that could only be stitched together if it occurred to someone to combine the false name/address given to the police with the false name/address on the pawn ticket? What were they to make of the details on the other pawn ticket in Eddowes' possession, which would assuredly have thrown the curve-ball of "Emily Birrell, 52 Whites Row" into the mix?

Another thing about the pawn tickets... it was the pawnbroker, not the police, who was given the "Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street" details. If that name and address were in any way significant, why did Eddowes choose to give that information to a mere pawnbroker? Did she believe that she might "disappear" after selling the boots? I doubt it.

Bear in mind that, if she'd succeeded in obtaining the money to buy the boots back - which was possible, at least - then she'd have handed over that ticket at the counter and we'd never have known about her having used "Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street" at all. Assuming she'd still gone on to be murdered, all we'd have had was "Mary Ann Kelly, 6 Fashion Street" and "Emily Birrell, 52 Whites Row". Not many breadcrumbs leading to the Miller's Court victim there.

[Losmandris]

Exactly, Packer. The City Missionary said Mary came to their meetings and he "rescued" one of her friends. A Salvation Army Captain also said Mary came to a service. Mary made herself known and was very memorable. I still remember the standout from when I did some volunteer missionary work among the homeless. As for Catherine: if Mary didn't know her real last name, would she have even recognized "Kate" or "Catherine" or "Mary Ann" from the newspaper descriptions even if she knew her?

I still don't see where the evidence is, that these two knew each other? How many thousand people lived in the area at the time? Statistically, the odds that any of these five knew each other must be minute.

Just because it makes for a good story or fits into some theory does not make it true. There is simply no real evidence. Until some is uncovered it must be assumed that they did not know each other.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

Why should she disappear? And, if she did, why leave a trail that could only be stitched together if it occurred to someone to combine the false name/address given to the police with the false name/address on the pawn ticket? What were they to make of the details on the other pawn ticket in Eddowes' possession, which would assuredly have thrown the curve-ball of "Emily Birrell, 52 Whites Row" into the mix?

Another thing about the pawn tickets... it was the pawnbroker, not the police, who was given the "Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street" details. If that name and address were in any way significant, why did Eddowes choose to give that information to a mere pawnbroker? Did she believe that she might "disappear" after selling the boots? I doubt it.

Bear in mind that, if she'd succeeded in obtaining the money to buy the boots back - which was possible, at least - then she'd have handed over that ticket at the counter and we'd never have known about her having used "Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street" at all. Assuming she'd still gone on to be murdered, all we'd have had was "Mary Ann Kelly, 6 Fashion Street" and "Emily Birrell, 52 Whites Row". Not many breadcrumbs leading to the Miller's Court victim there.

The name she gave for the boots was on the ticket, so possibly it was intended to do more than misinform the pawnbroker, it might have been, as I said, breadcrumbs. The possibility of disappearing that I mentioned is because if she did intend to meet someone about getting some money to keep quiet about someone she claimed she believed was responsible for the recent murders, instead of going to the police or a vigilance committee for a reward, then she would know that who she was dealing with was dangerous and she was vulnerable, that she was in essence attempting to extort money from him/they. Poke the bear and see what you get...I think she knew what kind of danger she was putting herself in...and I believe so did Kelly.

[Abby Normal]

I still don't see where the evidence is, that these two knew each other? How many thousand people lived in the area at the time? Statistically, the odds that any of these five knew each other must be minute.

Just because it makes for a good story or fits into some theory does not make it true. There is simply no real evidence. Until some is uncovered it must be assumed that they did not know each other.

Tristan

exactly Los. its just people making stuff up for some preconceived conspiracy/theory. no evidence whatsoever the victims knew each other.
and even if they did so what? still means nothing.

[Michael W Richards]

She lived at #14.

Ah...I recall some Ripper connective thread with #6, thought it might have been Corrie. Was it Sarah? Sorry...seniors moment.

[etenguy]

Another thing about the pawn tickets... it was the pawnbroker, not the police, who was given the "Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street" details. If that name and address were in any way significant, why did Eddowes choose to give that information to a mere pawnbroker? Did she believe that she might "disappear" after selling the boots? I doubt it.

I understand why Kate gave the police a false name, but why give a false name to a pawnbroker? I suspect the false address was merely that she had no established address. Did she know Mary Jane Kelly, at least in passing, and was attempting to give her name and address simply our of embarrassment at not have a fixed abode?