Double Event Timeline

[Monty]

Indeed Mike,

Amateur profilers, whose training lasts for an hour every Friday night on Fox, are now confusing personal opinion with fact.

Then again, that's how its ever been.

Monty

[The Good Michael]

I blame CSI Miami.

Monty

Monty,

I understand. It just gets to you after a while. Fleming, Hutchinson, whoever, it just gets to you. I think Gareth and Hinton are in a better place maybe. At least my internet's bad enough that I only have to see this stuff sporadically.

Mike

[Monty]

I blame CSI Miami.

Monty

[curious4]

[QUOTE=curious;204521]

She took longer to bleed to death because of the single cut.

Cheers,
C4

Hi, Curious, too, uh 4,

That single cut is so different from any of the other cuts, how do you reconcile it with it being made by JtR?

The cut is almost tentative compared to the others. Doesn't it appear to be by a different hand?

I still have more questions than answers and remain, Curious, How about you, C4, are you developing answers?

curious

Hello there Curious,

I think the difference (if there is one) is only because he only had time for one cut. What would the other victims have looked like with only one cut? Jack seemed to be a risk-taker, perhaps he heard the cart coming while in the act of cutting the throat.

No I`m with the Jack dunnit bunch and so were the police at the time, even though it would have caused less panic if they had been able to prove/suggest otherwise.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious]

[QUOTE=curious4;203989]She took longer to bleed to death because of the single cut.

Cheers,
C4

Hi, Curious, too, uh 4,

That single cut is so different from any of the other cuts, how do you reconcile it with it being made by JtR?

The cut is almost tentative compared to the others. Doesn't it appear to be by a different hand?

I still have more questions than answers and remain, Curious, How about you, C4, are you developing answers?

curious

[Malcolm X]

you have to think like him, because then you realise what ``feels`` about right, but i cant get my head inside no13 no way, the rest is simply over enthusiasm.

[RedBundy13]

Its like you know him Malcolm.

Monty

Either that or alot of research...

[Monty]

Its like you know him Malcolm.

Monty

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm.

Why would he mind someone seeing him chatting her up? As far as any casual observer is concerned he's just a punter chatting up a prostitute. If the "double event" is accepted as two murders by the same killer, you have to ask, for your point to be valid, why JtR was worried about being seen in Dutfields Yard, but not in Church Passage?

Cheers, Bridewell.

aah no, inside the yard of Dutfields is exactly on the murder scene, Church Passage is not, Mitre square could therefore be another client that came along later on, that wasn't seen, or even another victim...... a prosecutor can not prove that Sailor boy went to Mitre square with her, he could say ``no i walked off, i was just flirting with her``.

but inside Dutfields is too close for comfort, the killer is standing right on her murder site.... it doesn't matter being seen earlier on up the road, it's the murder site that he cant be seen at.

JTR therefore thinks, `` i must kill her instantly, i can not afford to be seen talking to her before she dies, anyone could walk out of that door beside her, in fact; i shouldn't really be killing her at all ``.

so you see JTR kills her, but this location is far too risky to chat first, because whatever the case, JTR has made his mind up to kill her anyway!

so if he's seen, he'll only come back again and he knows this...so no, ``i'd better kill her right now and get the hell out of here while i can``

he's desperate for a victim on this location, so he will not give up like he should, but the priority is always not to be seen at the murder site too close to the time of death...... no way!

[Malcolm X]

With MJK maybe he felt more comfortable, like he didnt need to rush because there was little chance of him being interupted. He finally has a victim that he can do whatever he wants to with her. Hes in no hurry so he can litterly rip her to pieces and leave the most shocking crime scene the police had ever seen. His work/masterpiece complete, he can finally rest... for a while...

hi

no you've totally missed what i was trying to say, let me put this another way with regards to time:-

why dont the first 2 victims have face mutilations compared to Eddowes, because Eddowes/ Stride are the worst for time, but Stride doesn't count.

i say no, i think JTR would have mutilated the faces of the first 2 as well, i think with the last two he's doing this on purpose to make himself look more revolting, to give himself more publicity, to make these murders infamous for ever, and to make ``a jewish killer`` look as evil as he can.

i think the real JTR is probably A.Chapman, with JTR also being a more ``normal street killer``, he fluctuates between these two types.

Eddowes and Kelly are different because he's raising his game for maximum publicity and antisemetism, he's only doing this temporarily, i think something happened in his life before Stride, that caused him to change tactics like this.

1..... before Stride we dont even see a hint of anti-semetism
2..... after Stride we do
3..... after Stride we see face mutilations and a massive increase in horror!

JTR has changed tactics before Stride, he has suddenly decided to target the Jews.

if we also say that the other murders before might be him as well, then he is quite content to just kill them with a knife...... you see no Anti-semetism and no face mutilations/ gutted either.

i think many might be missing how different the last 3 murders are, and how strongly linked they are to one person in particular.

you also see no anti-semetism/ graffiti after MJK, for the last few victims, so this points towards JTR backing off on purpose..... because he has to !

[curious4]

Hey curious,
Im not so sure I agree with the clenched fists must have been strangled first theory. If it was me being stangled my first reaction would be to drop what ever was in my hands and try to pry my attackers hands or arm off of my neck.
Just picture the situation in your head, someone strangling another. Do you see that person trying to pry the attackers hands or arm off of their neck with clenched fists? Or do you see the victim grabbing at the attackers hand/arm with open hands, trying to scratch, pull, bend fingers or pry the perpetrator off of her?
While I can agree that clenched fists can be a secondary sign of stangleation, I believe that would be only towards the end, when the victim gives up and is about to go unconsious. Only then would they stop fighting and clench their fists. IMO
To me, the latter is the most likely scenario. Am I alone on that?

Hello Red,

In all the killings JTR seems to have subdued the women very quickly and efficiently. They would have lost consciouness very fast and possibly been paralysed with shock for a moment before they could react, after all, he must have been someone they had trusted - that would be all the time needed to get the victims where he wanted them. However he did it, it had to be very quick.

Cheers,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hello C4, Red. Clenched fists CAN be a sign of strangulation. However, there seem to be other possible causes besides that.

Redbundy, Lynn.
As Lynn pointed out, clenched hands "can" be, but it is not a requirement, the reason being, the clenching, which is a tightening of the smaller muscles, is an involuntary spasm.

Certainly, as RB pointed out a victim is going to drop anything in her hands if the strangulation attack is not swift enough, but once she succumbs to the lack of oxygen the smaller muscles in the hands can cramp up thereby giving the appearance of a fist.

What I am not sure about is how swift the attack needs to be for someone to be taken so completely by surprise that they don't even drop whatever is in their grasp before the spasm takes over and clenches the fingers.
The murder of Stride comes to mind.

On the other hand, if the attack is slow she would drop whatever she is holding and try to remove the cord or fingers causing her the distress. Yet the clenching of the fingers is typically associated with a slow death, which makes the circumstances of Strides death all the more facinating.
Not that I am suggesting Stride was strangled.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

What's The Risk?

JTR would worry about someone coming out yes and someone like him, entering the yard quickly, so realising this, JTR must have killed her lightning fast.... fact!

no point him chatting her up inside the yard first, just in case someone comes out and sees him chatting to her

Hi Malcolm.

Why would he mind someone seeing him chatting her up? As far as any casual observer is concerned he's just a punter chatting up a prostitute. If the "double event" is accepted as two murders by the same killer, you have to ask, for your point to be valid, why JtR was worried about being seen in Dutfields Yard, but not in Church Passage?

Cheers, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

Redbundy -as to the fist clenched around the cachous...

Maybe Liz didn't ever imagine that she was fighting for her life at the beginning of the attack ? She might have been attacked quite often in the past....very very recently by BS man ....

If she was someone practical, and the yard was pitch black, she might have had a psychological reflex not to drop the cachous, scatter them, and lose them all in the dark...at the start

As she died it translated itself to a physical reflex

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello C4, Red. Clenched fists CAN be a sign of strangulation. However, there seem to be other possible causes besides that.

But I'm not so sure about protruding/lacerated tongues. Hence, my distinction.

Cheers.
LC