Double Event Timeline

[lynn cates]

John's story

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Because he expected her to return to their lodgings. On the Sunday he wandered around the murders sites and then returned to Flower and Dean St asking if Kate had returned. On Monday he returned from working at the market to again ask if Kate had returned."

So what was he thinking?

"He thought Eddowes had gone to her daughter`s but had heard that she had been picked up by the Police. I suppose that once she never returned early on Sunday he assumed that she had gone to her sister`s."

But how did he account for her delay? Besides, the daughter had moved, as he was bloody well aware.

"Considering that Eddowes never gave her correct name and address to the Police anyway it might have been tricky if Kelly turned up at the police station."

Was John aware that she had given a false name?

"The coppers might even assume, as they were not married, that Kelly was keeping Eddowes for immoral purposes."

Are you suggesting John actually thought this? (Recall that, at inquest, he talked about her walking the streets in terms of moving from place to place.)

"He may have also been in some kind of denial. Hoping that Eddowes would come through the door before he had to identify the body in Golden Lane."

Denial? I rather like that word. To be sure. But we may have different ideas about what precisely was the object of that denial.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Three monkeys

On which basis, poor old Liz Stride waited outside a socialist/anarchists club and didn't hear a thing...come on Lynn!

Dave

[lynn cates]

message

Hello Dave. Yes, I suppose you are right.

But rather than show my hand, I prefer to titillate just a bit.

A couple of years ago I found a snippet in "The Centaur" in which a Russian police informant was lured by a Socialist gang to a certain area. There he was set upon and beaten up. They cut off both his nose and ears and left him to die. He did. A note was affixed indicating his nose was removed because he was a nark for the police; his ears, because he was an ass.

Now, without implicating a group (not my intentions at all), look at Kate's mutilations. Her nose removed, part of an ear, her eyes gashed, and (pay close attention) her mouth, almost.

Although I am not keen on elaborate symbolism, this looks like:

1. You heard what you shouldn't have heard.

2. You saw what you shouldn't have seen.

3. You said what you shouldn't have said.

4. You stuck your nose where it didn't belong.

If John knew what Kate knew, could it have served as a warning?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

OK, but he found out that she was locked up and he even mentioned that he thought she'd be out next day. When she was not, why did he not seek her?

Because he expected her to return to their lodging`s. On the Sunday he wandered around the murders sites and then returned to Flower and Dean St asking if Kate had returned. On Monday he returned from working at the market to again ask if Kate had returned.

He thought Eddowes had gone to her daughter`s but had heard that she had been picked up by the Police. I suppose that once she never returned early on Sunday he assumed that she had gone to her sister`s.

Considering that Eddowes never gave her correct name and address to the Police anyway it might have been tricky if Kelly turned up at the police station. The coppers might even assume, as they were not married, that Kelly was keeping Eddowes for immoral purposes.

He may have also been in some kind of denial. Hoping that Eddowes would come through the door before he had to identify the body in Golden Lane.

[Cogidubnus]

Do however think he may have grasped the situation.

That is a somewhat enigmatic note even for you Lynn!

Dave

[lynn cates]

alternates

Hello Bridewell. Sounds interesting.

One thing must be born in mind at the outset--just because his testimony is obviously off in several places, does not make him the slayer of Kate.

Do however think he may have grasped the situation.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Or

Lynn...You're really heading for a separate murderer for each case aren't you?

I know you're still putting all your bits and pieces together, but that's the basic thought at the back of your mind isn't it?

Brave man...

Dave

Hi Dave et al,

I actually think it may be time for a John Kelly suspect thread, so I think I'll start one entitled: "Should We Consider John Kelly A Suspect?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

almost

Hello Dave. Essentially. Do think Polly and Annie had a single killer, though.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Confronting it...Druitt et al

Lynn...You're really heading for a separate murderer for each case aren't you?

I know you're still putting all your bits and pieces together, but that's the basic thought at the back of your mind isn't it?

Brave man...

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

because he was pissed and sleeping in? (if so where did the money come from?)...

Dave

[lynn cates]

his story

Hello Jon.

"When she had not returned at 4pm Kelly assumed that she was staying over for Sunday at her daughter`s, until he later found out that she had been locked up."

OK, but he found out that she was locked up and he even mentioned that he thought she'd be out next day. When she was not, why did he not seek her?

Cheers.
LC

[moonbegger]

So where did they have their breakfast , and who made it ? the dark clouds of confusion and conjecture descend . the spotlight is shining super bright , unfortunately not on the stage , its concentrated on the man 4th row from the back picking his nose albeit very interesting .

moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

Reboot

Could it be that when they popped the brand new boots they reinvested (at the hockshop or elsewhere) some of the money in a cheapo third hand pair of boots or shoes so Kelly could at least go about on foot?

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Bridewell

On another point, why did she promise to be back by 4 o'clock when (according to Kelly) she often came back much later?

I believe Kelly meant that she would normally return to the Lodging House at 8 or 9pm. But it had been over a year since she had visited her daughter, so a return time of 4 pm was given by Eddowes.
When she had not returned at 4pm Kelly assumed that she was staying over for Sunday at her daughter`s, until he later found out that she had been locked up.

[lynn cates]

strain

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"If they had taken a double bed for 8d it would have wiped them out financially. They had spent the previous night at the Casual Ward because they didn`t have enough money, and it seems that John earned his doss that Friday afternoon and could afford a bed, Kate didn`t and returned to the Casual Ward."

So an extra 2d would wipe them out? Just as you wish. So why did not John go with her to MECW? Would that not save another tuppence? (By the way, delighted that you do not offer the back dating of the boots.) thanks.

"I`ll quote John Kelly again:
We had been drinking together out of the 2s 6d. All of it was spent in drink and food.""

Very well. I'll waive the food business, but I need to ascertain when the drinking occurred.

Do you maintain that they were at the pub before Kate left for MECW? So this "spree" caused Kate to forgo Flower and Dean for lack of 2d of doss? I can live with that. But if ALL their money is spent that night (except his 4d F & D doss and her 2d MECW doss) surely they were out of luck for breakfast and a drink afterward?

Seriously, I'm NOT trying to be cute or petty here. I seek only a consistent timeline for events. But for the life of me, I cannot find one.

But at least, as you said, you too feel the strain in his testimony.

Cheers.
LC