Serial Killers, A pattern???

[c.d.]

Not that I believe this but I will just throw it out there...the Fenians wouldn't necessarily have to do the killings but they could stir up unrest by getting the newspapers to sensationalize the killings.

c.d.

[joelhall]

I am totally at a loss as to how anyone could be deluded enough to think that killing a couple of prostitutes in the East End, equates to paralyzing the Police force of London. In the wake of a Fenian uprising the British government would have abandoned those women to their fate in an instant, they would not have even given them a second thought.

...

You do not create civil unrest by murdering civilians, nor do you divide a nation by killing its people, you unite it (just as the British government would unite Ireland with the executions in the wake of the failed 1916 uprising), and certainly by 1888 the Fenians had begun to realise this. And these are Victorian Militants we are talking about here, not the Taliban. Blowing up Scotland Yard could be seen as striking at the heart of imperialism, butchering Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly most certainly could not, even in the most fervent of minds.

I can see the idea, insurgency is nothing new after all, I just cannot see what they could have hoped to achieve thats all.

precisely why would al quaeda kill civilians by crashing planes into buildings, or the ira to blow up pubs or shopping centres in mainland britain? this is not to target high profile national figures but to spread terror amongst a people - the very point of terrorism in the first place.

besides, the way in which someone carries out a crime is only due to their motive in the first place. the use of bombs is certainly not the only means employed by terrorist groups, even if it is widely employed for a certain purpose. just ask anyone who has ever served in northern ireland, (or indeed anyone from northern ireland who joined the british armed forces or even in some cases simply came to work here).

guns and knives achieve things which bombs do not. if someone wanted to kill a body and leave it in the middle of a public place to spread fear then thats what they would do. theyd also tell you that these guys were not rank amateurs either, but at times a very formidable opponent, and for the most part pretty tough.

indeed, the whitechapel murders did lead to civil unrest and a loss of confidence in the police force, especially amongst the detective branch/cid regardless of whether it was intended or not. that anyone could stalk in the shadows kill and make off without trace was bound to put the frighteners on the populace there. they also sent a pretty horrific message which spread fear amongst a populace, no matter how long it lasted.

it was also evident that the poor conditions of the east end were highlighted in the consciousness of the rest of london, which led to calls for massive social reform, or at least increased them.

the politics of london in this age was more complex than many bother to acknowledge. not overly so, but you have to admit there were lots of reforms going on, not just at national level or between countries but in local communities.

im not for one stating that i believe the fenians were involved in these killings (because i dont), only that it cannot be dismissed out of hand due to theories of 'different mos' or that it wouldnt create the terror or social upheaval that these groups intended - which as it turned out it did. maybe it did not cripple a police force, but the idea of terrorists is not always to focus on the authorities themselves, but the populace of a country. after all the bombings of civilians in world war two were not to kill off the royals, politicians and generals, but to break peoples morale, and hope. this is precisley the intention of many terrorist organisations - to show theyre angry and to try and beat people down into submission. authorities only exist due to the society they exist in. if you change that society you change the authorities. despite the way things seem, authorities are only where they are by appointment. the power of the people if it affects enough people can be quite devastating to an existing state (think of russia in world war 1, or the french revolution).

as an extra note, my dad worked in london all his life. there were certainly more bombs discovered and other criminal activities going on than ever made the news (sometimes hed see these being deactivated, and more than once heard a bomb go off nearby, especially when their offices were by canary wharf). these were not reported so as not to spread unecessary alarm. terrorists only represent a small proportion of people - the ones who are angry enough to take action. if everyone who wanted to bring doom and destruction down on us really was one of them, then we really would be in trouble. not every irish republican will join the ira, and not every muslim fanatic will become a suicide bomber, simply because not matter how angry not everyone wants to kill people indiscriminately.

terrorism by its very nature is no measure of pre-planning intelligence by the perperators. the idea is to spread terror - fear and panic - amongst the targets. its a message of anger, not politics. blowing things up is simply a tool, which attracts attention towards itself and certainly makes people take note. a little like ripped up bodies in public places.

the irish republicans definitely do not only use explosives, but all manner of ways of killing targets - snipers, hitmen, even gangs of teenagers chucking bricks and lighting cars on fire, and the occaisional execution via gun or knife, not only to achieve objectives but to voice anger. many other types of full or semi-organised criminal gang employ similar methods, and some are well known for leaving bodies as a warning, or simply to claim their territory in the face of the police.

youre also wrong in certain points you make. to say that the uk has never had faith in its police is a vast over-generalisation - some people do have faith in them, others not. and it is not possible to please everyone all of the time.

needless to say if people didnt have faith in them they would not bother to call them in the first place, and the sheer number of complaints made, not just for major crimes, every year surely indicates that trust is placed in them to help to some degree, otherwise why waste their time with comparatively trivial incidents, let alone larger ones? one group of people does not reflect the whole of society, and even amongst one particular group there is not always consensus.

secondly, it is not true that british intelligence services always infiltrate terrorist groups - sometimes they do, sometimes not. if they always did many of the large atrocities which have occurred in the past could surely have been averted? besides were talking about 1888, and i doubt very much that the intelligence services of the time had had very much practice in anti-terrorist roles, and covert operations. there are cases also, where new factions have appeared from nowhere - noone even knew they existed let alone thought to infiltrate, until they have struck.

its perfectly possible that fenians could have been involved in the killings. its perfectly possible it was a serial killer, a criminal gang, or numerous other theories. but over-generalisation is not a great counter attack.

[Phil Carter]

David,

Indeed. And quite rightly, you point that out. And on that particular part of the case, I can say that I have been concentrating a little on via research as well. Alice McKenzie's background, name, and involvement as a "ripper victim" or not. As of the time of writing, as with no doubt many points that come up, there aren't any all revealing answers to counter the argument with. But rest assured that although they haven't surfaced, doesn't mean they are to be ignored. Thats the point with a working idea. Input from outside that raises questions AGAINST the idea. I encourage them wholeheartedly.
I sometimes wish, as do many others no doubt, that I could have 100 hours in a day to do all I wanted... but one step at a time. This idea has a basis. To substantiate that basis is part of the working idea.
Perhaps others may wish to add their views and research. I encourage them as well

best wishes as always

Phil

David,

I will however like to add this one thing. I noticed on another thread (about Tumblety) the following reference made by SPE,

"....We also had the statement in the 1928 book Masters of Crime by Guy B. H. Logan that, "The murders ceased, I think, with the Miller [sic] Court one, and I am the more disposed to this view because, though the fact was was kept a close secret at the time, I know that one of Scotland Yard's best men, Inspector Andrews, was sent specially to America in December, 1888, in search of the Whitechapel fiend on the strength of important information, the nature of which was never disclosed."....."

Not that this one reference is my sole reason for my comment, but an indication of the reasoning behind it.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

David,

Indeed. And quite rightly, you point that out. And on that particular part of the case, I can say that I have been concentrating a little on via research as well. Alice McKenzie's background, name, and involvement as a "ripper victim" or not. As of the time of writing, as with no doubt many points that come up, there aren't any all revealing answers to counter the argument with. But rest assured that although they haven't surfaced, doesn't mean they are to be ignored. Thats the point with a working idea. Input from outside that raises questions AGAINST the idea. I encourage them wholeheartedly.
I sometimes wish, as do many others no doubt, that I could have 100 hours in a day to do all I wanted... but one step at a time. This idea has a basis. To substantiate that basis is part of the working idea.
Perhaps others may wish to add their views and research. I encourage them as well

best wishes as always

Phil

[DVV]

Phil, theory or working idea, I personally don't care, since I don't criticize it as such, but merely propose the objections that come to my mind. As everybody does.
Nothing should prevent you to answer/discuss my point about MacKenzie and Lawende.

Amitiés,
David

Special Branch Operatives, Burial Ground of the Parish Church of Christ Church Spitalfields (i.e. 'Itchy Park'), 1902

[Phil Carter]

David,

Like I said earlier, thats very possible... like I also said, this is an idea, not a theory, and like I said earlier, it isnt infallable. But all the pieces ARE in place in Whitechapel. This is a working idea, that has to be stated. It may have variations, and there isnt anything set in stone... but it is a darn sight more plausible than some of the stuff we have ben dished up over the years.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

They KNEW Kelly was the last one.

Phil

Hi Phil,

...and oh, no, they didn't.
Munro's first opinion was that MacKenzie was a victim of JtR. Phillips also.

And Lawende, witness in the C4 case, has been called to identify several suspects, up to 1895.


Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Hello Sox,

Respectfully. It has got nothing at all to do with just "what a militant force could possible hope to gain bt killing Eddowes and Stride"

EXACTLY?... Simple
1) Jenkinson started the whole thing by employing locals, men and women, as snitches, in Whitechapel.
2) Anderson took over the Fenian busting....then took on JTR..The CASE. More undercover police sent in. On a murder case. With the SAME undercover tactics used.
3) C4 and C5 were part of the above.
4) They got caught by the very people they were trying to snitch on... SNITCH on.. re PLOTS to kill Balfour, and gawd knows what else.... etc etc etc. (A MUCH bigger threat...).
They were disposed of.
5) C4 and C5, as muders, werent the statement... but C4 and C5 the PEOPLE... the INFORMATION...were! Thats why they had to be liquidated.

Perhaps (Note this is supposition) Eddowes Fire Engine impersonation was only the last bit of her drunken mouthing off....Perhaps Kelly had started to mouth off in the pub... I dont know. But loose tongues talk. And drunk ones talk a lot. And loud. Its speculation...but it is possible.

now you are totally at a loss, I hope you have gained something more.

Thank you for reading this. Its an over-simplification. But thats as simple as it gets.

best wishes

Phil

[Sox]

Royal birth. No false rubbish Corey. The difference with this idea is that the pieces WERE all in place, so it IS feasable.. It isnt made up. See?

A lot of it is exagerated, the Fenians had a vastly over infalted view of themselves & a great deal of it was just a lot of talk. As to American involvement, well the Irish Brigade veterans who invaded Canada in 66 would have testified that while many many Irish American talked the talk, very few of them were interested in walking the walk. Radicals,Socialists, Anarchists et al may well have been as thick as fleas, but hardly any of them were actually men of action.

And all across the United Kingdom they still, in 2010, sit in their clubs singing songs and promising death destruction and reform. To the utter glee of the British secret service they have always been able to infiltrate these groups, simply because they are chock full of rank amatuers.

I am totally at a loss as to how anyone could be deluded enough to think that killing a couple of prostitutes in the East End, equates to paralyzing the Police force of London. In the wake of a Fenian uprising the British government would have abandoned those women to their fate in an instant, they would not have even given them a second thought.

Now I am not rubbishing your theory, I'd just really like for you to explain exactly what a militant force could possibly hope to gain by killing Eddowes and Kelly, and lets not even pretend that they thought they were spreading chaos please, because that really is not the case. If a two year bombing campaign wasn't going to get it done, then butchering a couple of drunks in the East end was doomed to failure.

Lets not even go down the 'shaking public opinion' route either. The public in the UK has never had confidence in it's police force. The bombing campaign that ended in 85 had, as you well know, created Special Branch who, as you also know, were dealing with the Fenians in London.

You do not create civil unrest by murdering civilians, nor do you divide a nation by killing its people, you unite it (just as the British government would unite Ireland with the executions in the wake of the failed 1916 uprising), and certainly by 1888 the Fenians had begun to realise this. And these are Victorian Militants we are talking about here, not the Taliban. Blowing up Scotland Yard could be seen as striking at the heart of imperialism, butchering Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly most certainly could not, even in the most fervent of minds.

I can see the idea, insurgency is nothing new after all, I just cannot see what they could have hoped to achieve thats all.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Corey,

Picture this if you can.
C1 and C2 murdered by a madman. Even a mad, Polish Jew. Call him Kosminski, Ischenschmidt,Diemshitz...call him whatever you will... the "type" of person that JTR is commonly associated with.

Picture C3... a one off, angry, alchohol induced fit of quick rage, in quick time, right outside a place where drink is served, in the dark of night of the yard...

Picture C4 and C5, with Fenian intervention. Eddowes and Kelly, somehow mixed up in the anti Fenian stuff...picture these two women are part of, and that MUST be stressed.. part of, the underground anti Fenian mob scattered about the area, (men and women) working for the SD, or under their instructions...to get info..or IN POSESSION OF, info, relating to Fenian activity. They get rubbed out. Their faces in the first instance partly slashed apart...that is a KNOWN "execution" method for snitches to be treated..make them unseen, ears, eyes..hear no evil, see know evil..and then ultimately, speak no evil. The body ripping?..its MADE to look like C1 and C2...to make it LOOK like a maniac responsible for all 4, if not 5. Disinformation and deflection from the finger being pointed.
It isn't IMPOSSIBLE Corey. In gangs, and political madmen, it is done all the time. There are still many tens of people MISSING because of their anti IRA stance from the 70's and 80's. They were silenced. No, Fenians didnt always use bombs Corey. A look back at history gives many varying and wide examples of causing terror. ON INDIVIDUALS. OF NORMAL people.
The classic example in recent times is the Omagh bombings... its not the bomb that is important...it was the impact..the reaction it caused. The FEAR factor. Normal, innocent women and children, blown away. Not aimed at any police group, or army group. But the TERROR factor...the POWER over the poplace...I lived in London in the 70's.. and the stuff going on there frightened the life out of you.. NAIL bombs against men on horseback.. Knightsbridge..the Harrods bomb...One boat blown apart on a holiday in Ireland, Mountbatten, who was an old man..it was a statement...in any way, we will get you. That was the message. It may be hard to understand, but reality nearly always is with extremist groups.

It happens today, yesterday and yesteryear. And it takes enormous amounts of police energy to counter such things. Within the IWMC alone, there were police raids left right and centre. And it WASN'T only Jews in that place Corey...Irish and Anarchists hung around there. Anarchists and Fenians, from all over were arrested in the years around 1888. That lot were VERY powerful. American sympathisers of Home Rule were many in number, and funding was great. People were sent over or volunteered to join in. Doctors, terrorists, and KILLERS.

This isn't to belittle any other idea. It is just TIME to look another way Corey... because, as long time researcher of repute, Simon Wood says, ...
"when for 121 years we have walked down the same alley, and gotten to a dead end, it is time to go back to the start and take a different alley".
The first alley, Corey, is exhausted. There are no more possibilities.
And that alley will never give an answer.
So give this alley a wide berth, and give it a chance. The basis is simple. Politically, Fenians and Anarchists were in force. Counter measures included infiltrating their systems. Anderson, the top anti Fenian was dragged in on a MURDER case.... and Abberline, Irish expert and East End expert. And others. Top ranking Policemen with Anti Fenian experience, all become involved.
And after Mary Kelly?... all the stuff is toned down. The police, soon afterwards start disappearing in geat numbers, back to their ordinary beats. They KNEW Kelly was the last one. Anderson knew. And Warren, he resigned the day it was announced to the world, on the flimsiest of reasons.
Then the smokescreens began. The reasons, the disinformation, the police all giving different views and opinions.

Give this idea (not theory) a wide berth, and let it run Corey. You won't be the only one surprised if it turned out that way. Emminent Ripperologists the world over would be taken aback. Because it ISN'T the accepted answer.
Nope, it isn't. But this investigation has stood dead still for long enough. It is time for a change.
And if we are wrong? SO WHAT??????
It means we have got as far as anyone else. NOWHERE.
Just give it a break. This isnt going to topple Royalty..there isnt a unwanted Royal birth. No false rubbish Corey. The difference with this idea is that the pieces WERE all in place, so it IS feasable.. It isnt made up. See?

Thank you for reading this.

best wishes

Phil

[Sox]

Not in a million years were militant Fenian's, conspiring with ale house english socialists, to butcher destitute alcoholics (including one supposedly Irish girl) with a view to bringing down the Crown.

Not even with the outlook of a Victorian militant could you convince yourself that hacking Kate Eddowes to pieces was fighting for freedom.

Mike,

I understand trying to get Fenians into it, and I also understand socialists. But now is it fenian socialists from gangs?? Seriously, you two need to try and investigate solved murder cases as if they were unsloved. I would love to see how many murderers you come up with.

Youre missing the forest for some perimeter trees corey. Whats been brought up in a lot of debates lately regarding Fenians, Socialists, radicals, gangs,....is that there was quite obviously malicious factors at work in Whitechapel in the Fall of 1888 other than Jack. We know this to be true.

Political assassinations were being planned for the second consecutive year,.....these murders affected less than one square mile of London proper......and affected no-one middle class or higher. These few murders were not the big games going on in town.

When you pose toppling a Government through violence and revolution against 5 homeless street prostitutes being sliced up in the ghetto.....you must see that one doesnt supersede the other.....in fact, they may be merged.

Best regards

[corey123]

Mike,

I understand trying to get Fenians into it, and I also understand socialists. But now is it fenian socialists from gangs?? Seriously, you two need to try and investigate solved murder cases as if they were unsloved. I would love to see how many murderers you come up with.

Lynn,

Which is it, gangs or terrorist?

Are they mutually exclusive corey? Need they be? Arent groups of men organized to accomplish the same goals through aggression and fear mongering essentially the same types of characters very often?

Why would a Socialist cross the road....the answer might be to join a Fenian protest, or vice versa.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Best regards