What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[DVV]

Hello (once more) David. Thanks.

Hi again Lynn.

"everybody knows all C5 were at least casual prostitutes. So yes, do your job."

My job is first to figure out what happened.

Escape lane. Try another job.

"The two victims of the mad pork butcher are innocent of non-soliciting."

If they told the truth, of course.

If you mean we only have their word to presume they were soliciting, you're doubly ridiculous, I'm afraid.

"You know a lot."

I said PRESUME.

Esacape lane again. Why don't you answer my question ? They had a date although not knowing when she would be released ?

"I presume you can produce evidence that Berner Street was not frequented by prostitutes."

Only the club member statements and others at inquest.

"If not, I can produce one that says it was."

You're on. Whom at inquest said this?

Oh, you're some kind of Trevor Mariott. The inquest, only the inquest (Trevor got it from Luther, I know).
Police were present at the inquest. And they were not surprised about Berner Street. They considered Liz just as they considered Nichols and Chapman : old prostitutes killed by somebody who acted as a client. Have you read something from the official files saying : "Wait... A prostitute in Berner Street ? Impossible !"
You have not. But I have an article that says a lot regarding prostitution in Berner Street.
So stop arguing on this, please. You're lost.

Cheers Lynn

[Colin Roberts]

"What was Nichols doing?"

Well, she talked as if she were soliciting. No reason to doubt her.

Did she, Lynn?

According to whom?

The deputy at 18 Thrawl Street that was quoted in a single tabloid: "See what a jolly bonnet I've got now"?

The same deputy that was never identified by that single tabloid, nor called to testify at the Nichols inquest?

Emily Holland?

What did she say to Emily Holland that suggested that she was off to solicit sexual favors?

She'd had her doss money and spent it three times that day? No mention of prostitution.

She needed to accrue her doss money, yet again? No mention of prostitution.

Was begging not an option for any of these women? Were they somehow above doing that?

Did she still need her doss money at 3:30AM?

"And Chapman?"

Same. If she is to be believed.

Same as Nichols: no mention of prostitution.

Was begging out of the question?

Did she still need her doss money post 4:00AM?

[DVV]

Oh Lynn, you're in trouble now.

A creature. Out of control. Frankenstein.

Tell him Nichols was picking flowers in Bucks Row.

And Chapman was hurrying to hear the mattins.

[RivkahChaya]

Did she still need her doss money at 3:30AM?



Same as Nichols: no mention of prostitution.

Was begging out of the question?

Did she still need her doss money post 4:00AM?

That's an interesting point. Did the doss houses have any beds left at that point? There are flop-houses in big cities here, where people can rent really tiny rooms on a weekly basis, cash up front, no lease, no references, and the people who rent them are on/off homeless-- they stay in free shelters, if they can get one, they sleep outside when the weather is good, they get cash-under-the-table work, and then they can take a room when the weather is bad.

Those rooms fill up as fast as they empty; there's never a vacancy. And they cost more than a bed in a doss house.

When did the doss houses kick people out? 6am? 8am? If there were beds left, were they half-price?

[Michael W Richards]

I happen to agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman essentially admitted to attempts at "earning" money after 12pm, and she was far drunker than some pittance she might get begging would allow for. Even with multiple successes. We know Polly used the workhouses like homes for years and I dont recall hearing about her doing anything legitimate for money....like hopping, or cleaning for example. It also seems pretty clear in the case of Annie Chapman, heading out to earn her doss after 1:30am that the same applies. Its a logical and supportable answer to why those 2 women were out on the streets on those particular nights.

The same answer is not readily available or supportable in the evidence concerning Kate, but as mentioned, she got very drunk before 8:30pm without any known money...and streetwalkers generally didnt work in the waning daylight. It is possible then that she got money some other way. We know that Liz made money that very day, in the same way that she had done for years, by cleaning. We know she left with the money, and, that she died with 2 new items in her possession, the cashous and the flower arrangement.

Also in the case of Kate, you would have to discount everything John Kelly says about their relationship and habits, and other witnesses, to assume she even casually solicited.

What we know is that it is almost certain that the first 2 Canonicals were actively soliciting when they met their killer, and that fact makes it possible that his choice of victim might well be related to that occupation.

We know that Liz Stride was seen talking with several men up until the time she is seen in the company of a man in the street by the club, by PC Smith at 12:35am. We know that a witness claims to have seen Kate talking with a man outside Mitre Square around 1:35am. Neither of those situations offers any conclusive answers about who they were talking to and why they were there....that is for us to figure out, or for some, to merely assume.

Cheers

[DVV]

Quintessential point

That's an interesting point.

Lol.

All the best

[Colin Roberts]

You require the most telling of evidence that Stride and Eddowes were soliciting, Mike; and yet you insist that we "know" that Nichols and Chapman were doing so on the basis of outright assumption.

Why was Chapman still soliciting some three or four hours after being turned away by Timothy Donovan?

Would she have been willing to sell her honor for a two or three hour doss at four in the morning? Perhaps; but we certainly don't "know" that to be the case.

For the record, Mike, I perceive the active solicitation scenario as being the single most likely, with regard to the last hours of Nichols's and Chapman's respective lives. But I do not pretend to "know" as much, and neither should you.

[lynn cates]

question

Hello David. Thanks.

"Why don't you answer my question?"

What question? All I see are assertions punctuated with snide remarks.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

motives

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Why did Polly go towards the horse slaughter yard? Why did Tompkins admit that ladies came up to the gates? Why did Polly take her tryst over to Buck's Row?

Most important, what do YOU believe?

Annie likely threw up the sponge earlier and went to sleep in the passage at #29.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

You require the most telling of evidence that Stride and Eddowes were soliciting, Mike; and yet you insist that we "know" that Nichols and Chapman were doing so on the basis of outright assumption.

Why was Chapman still soliciting some three or four hours after being turned away by Timothy Donovan?

Would she have been willing to sell her honor for a two or three hour doss at four in the morning? Perhaps; but we certainly don't "know" that to be the case.

For the record, Mike, I perceive the active solicitation scenario as being the single most likely, with regard to the last hours of Nichols's and Chapman's respective lives. But I do not pretend to "know" as much, and neither should you.

Yeah. What he said.

Is "throwing up the sponge" a British expression I don't know, or did Annie Chapman literally throw up a sponge? If so, why did she eat a sponge in the first place?

[lynn cates]

sponges and towels

Hello Rivkah.

To "throw up the sponge" is to "throw in the towel."

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Well if you throw in the towel when you make a sponge no wonder someone threw up the sponge.

[Abby Normal]

Nichols, chapman and eddowes-probably actively prostituting.

Stride-probably not prostituting. Probably looking for a new boyfriend and hanging with a man she just met.

Kelly-50/50 she was actively engaged in prostituting or looking for a new boyfriend/having a one nighter with Blotchy.

There is little doubt that they were all prostitutes at some time. And unfortunately it's like being a boxing champ, head coach or president. Once you are one of these , you are always (referred to as) one of these.

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Abby. Eddowes soliciting immediately upon release from gaol? No food? No drink? No privy? Already in fear of being late?

Surely Stride is much more likely--poor as the argument is.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Eddowes soliciting immediately upon release from gaol? No food? No drink? No privy? Already in fear of being late?

Surely Stride is much more likely--poor as the argument is.

Cheers.
LC

No money either.