A Whip and a Prod

[DJA]

Nationalism and culture - Rudolf Rocker

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Actually Debs did support the 22 Samuel Street address via school records of Rose/Dinah and Louis Schwatz (sic).

Leon Goldstein's address of 22 Christian Street, looks like it could be quite close to a railway arch.
Is that where Schwartz really ran to?

From a review page:

John Pizer was born in 1850 and was better known as Leather Apron, he was a Polish Jewish boot finisher, who lived at 22 Mulberry Street.

Apparently, everyone lives at a number 22.
What would Sherlock Holmes make of this?

[Michael W Richards]

With some very slight modifications almost all the stories can fit into a realistic last half hour, as they are perceived today... at face value, they cant be. So, either some stories are either accidentally, or intentionally, misleading. I would categorize the spot where she is killed and the immediate area as the most critical, and the surrounding street as a spot to look for supportive data for the findings established within that most critical area by witnesses. Id look at the alliances those witnesses might have, or the biases. Then Id try to assemble what I feel is a realistic and supportable series of events.

I think that, for me, is this.....Liz arrives to the area preparing to meet someone or to work at the club, after the man PC Smith sees her with leaves, I think she enters the passageway. Something happens between her and a brute in the passageway, and she is killed in a momentary loss of sanity action by her assailant. The club steward arrives, and summons his closest advisors in the club to the murder scene. Discussions take place, people are dispatched, the steward and the speaker themselves both leave just after 1 to seek help. I believe the club staff shooed off the murderer, maybe with some resentment and anger towards him, before anyone was sent to get the police. The reasons that the storys given have different times and events than others is troubling, but when you have many accounts that match each other by descriptions and times, you do have a way to establish what most probably happened when. Louis arrived near to 12:45. Fanny sees nothing but Goldstein's pass in the 10 minutes before and up until 1am. That establishes a time period where they could well be engaging in the strategizing I suggest and it insinuates that the stories given by people who would feel some obligation to protect the club...Diemshitz, Eagle, Wess, Lave...maybe Schwartz...were the ones who most probably altered their stories to fit an agreed format. That's why, to be safe, most of them saw nothing or anyone else. Even though, by their own stories and times, they must have been standing feet apart. One of those witnesses "couldn't be sure" whether Liz was lying there when he walked on that spot at what he says was 12:40am. One witness outside that group states that he felt he saw people running for help and went with them to the passageway around 12:40-12:45, then 3 more witnesses not responsible for the club agree with what he says was there at that time.

This really needn't be so hard, it only is because so many want to figure out how and why "Jack" did it. Not who killed her, cause that's pre-decided.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One of those witnesses "couldn't be sure" whether Liz was lying there when he walked on that spot at what he says was 12:40am.

This is a misreading of what Eagle said.
Eagle carefully walked along the passageway, which was in intense darkness.
He saw nothing, but it was so dark there that he 'couldn't be sure' there wasn't something lying on the ground.
He did not mean - as you seem to suppose - that he looked 'there' (on the ground), saw something indistinct (like Louis' 'pile of mud'), and kept walking.
He simply means he could not, under the circumstances, be 100% sure nothing was on the ground.
Therefore, he does not count as a witness, in the 12:40-45 time period.

What time do you have the police turning up?
1:05? Later?
What happens in the intervening 20 or more minutes, other than the impromptu house meeting?

Of most importance regarding witness times, are the times given by the police and medical professionals.
It is part of the job of these people to have good time awareness.
Not so the club members, and other members of the public like Fanny Mortimer.
Yet you put all your focus on these non-professionals.

[Michael W Richards]

This is a misreading of what Eagle said.
Eagle carefully walked along the passageway, which was in intense darkness.
He saw nothing, but it was so dark there that he 'couldn't be sure' there wasn't something lying on the ground.

The part I underlined and made bold is precisely what he said, so no, I didn't misread or misrepresent anything. People seem to think they can accuse anyone of anything here, likely on all board forums I suppose.

But so there is no confusion, what Eagle said in essence is that when he entered the passageway, and keep to the side where the club was on that pathway, he cant say for sure that there was a body on the ground which would have been literally in his way. Theres the context. Its rubbish.

What time do you have the police turning up?
1:05? Later?
What happens in the intervening 20 or more minutes, other than the impromptu house meeting?

I have no reason to suggest anything the police said or observed anything was inaccurate or incorrectly reported, whereas I do for the club staff members. For example I have Louis being contradicted on his arrival time by Heschberg, Gillen, Spooner, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer. Oddly enough, all of them essentially agree with the other though...one times, on what was happening, and who they observed.

Of most importance regarding witness times, are the times given by the police and medical professionals.
It is part of the job of these people to have good time awareness.
Not so the club members, and other members of the public like Fanny Mortimer.
Yet you put all your focus on these non-professionals.

You obviously miss the point here...people with nothing to lose would give their accounts without bias, people who stood to lose their jobs, or perhaps their dwelling, might construct a story favorable to their needs. The issue isn't whether they might act self protectively, its clear that might factor in here, its whether they delayed in seeking help so they could construct a story that limits any liability for the club or its members. IF Louis arrived when I suggest, then there is ample room for story creation.

The coup de grace is Schwartz, he places the likely assailant off the property, despite protestations he is far more likely implicating a gentile than not, and the gentile is anti-Semitic, just like many people were in that area at that time. The Social Anarchists were also doing local Jews a favor with that, not just themselves. Remember, on this night a senior investigator ordered evidence destroyed later that night because it might have cause riots against the local Jews.

Its also the only night where anti-Semitic grafitto is considered evidence in a criminal investigation of a murder, because of a possible connection to a murder of someone not Jewish in an area not owned by Jews. So, why Jews in the GSG I wonder? The Blame Jews are not receiving... Without reason....is that the Berner St Club members?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So to you, 'couldn't be sure', counts as a sighting of Stride?
If someone walked down a dark alley, and 'couldn't be sure' they didn't see an alien, would that count as a close encounter?

The coup de grace is Schwartz, he places the likely assailant off the property ...

Why doesn't Louis turn up just after the Schwartz incident?
What is the purpose of the 15 minute gap?
What occurs in this period?

I have no reason to suggest anything the police said or observed anything was inaccurate or incorrectly reported, whereas I do for the club staff members. For example I have Louis being contradicted on his arrival time by Heschberg, Gillen, Spooner, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer. Oddly enough, all of them essentially agree with the other though...one times, on what was happening, and who they observed.

At what time could Smith see the crowd gathering at the gates?
At what time did Louis turn up?
Which one of these people is wrong, and why?
If there is a club conspiracy, why choose to believe Louis was right about the time, and Smith wrong?
Alternatively, why doesn't Louis arrival time gel with the reported time of the Schwartz incident?

You obviously miss the point here...people with nothing to lose would give their accounts without bias, people who stood to lose their jobs, or perhaps their dwelling, might construct a story favorable to their needs. The issue isn't whether they might act self protectively, its clear that might factor in here, its whether they delayed in seeking help so they could construct a story that limits any liability for the club or its members. IF Louis arrived when I suggest, then there is ample room for story creation.

Prior to Schwartz attending Leman St station, was the club suspected of anything?
They apparently did the right thing - sent multiple parties looking for police, Eagle went to the station at Lamb's request, and everyone cooperated onsite.
There was no immediate reason to suspect the club, especially given what occurs an hour later.
Yet your theory sees Mitre Square as - from the club's PoV - nothing but a 'happy' coincidence.

Its also the only night where anti-Semitic grafitto is considered evidence in a criminal investigation of a murder, because of a possible connection to a murder of someone not Jewish in an area not owned by Jews. So, why Jews in the GSG I wonder? The Blame Jews are not receiving... Without reason....is that the Berner St Club members?

No, I think it actually refers to the Jews of the Capitalist class.
The GSG is anti 'the man' - which for the Anarchist/Socialists, mostly means Jews.
I'm not entirely convinced that 'Lipski' is simply an antisemitic slur, rather than a slur more specifically aimed at the orthodox class.
Scotland Yard weren't aware (initially) of the word's connotation - so why should we be absolutely sure we have it right, now?

[Michael W Richards]

I cant address everything you posted there, but I can see that there is some confusion. Simply put, I believe that Louis arrived around 12:45, he found the body, people were then assembled by it, and discussions about what to do and say were had. I believe Issac K is sent out by himself before long, as he is quoted saying he was, and I believe the people that Spooner saw were as well. Spooner follows them back to the passageway, just after 1am Louis and Morris head out in diferent directions, as Eagle returns Issac K sees him and joins him. All the police times are fine as is, all the medical times are fine as is, and the people who tell stories of activities other than Louis's arrival at 12:40-45 do not tell the complete truth. Oddly enough, ALL those stories belong to club affiliates...Lave, Eagle, Diemshitz, and likely Schwartz. These are the only stories about that half hour that are not corroborated by a secondary account. Not a single one. Whereas 4 witnesses about the passageway at 12:45 extremely closely match each other in both timing and descriptive elements.

There you are, the people I suggest have motive and time to manufacture the official version of events are the same ones that for the time of 12:40-12:45, made claims of the passageway and street that directly contradict the 4 corroborated witness accounts I mentioned. 4 almost identical versions of what transpired in the passageway at 12:45 ish. Blackwell suggested an earliest cut time, then modified it by around 10 minutes to around 12:46. If that was off by just a minute or 2, then what I suggest also fits the medical evidence. If the 2 second estimate of this event is accurate, this could have happened almost while Louis is pulling in.

The main witness statement from the street also fits fine with what I suggest. She didn't see Louis arrive at 1 because he arrived at 12:45ish, when she was evidently not at her door at that moment, being there "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50. From 12:50 until 1 she dictates what happened in view from her home. No Louis.

The summary here is....if you challenge the authenticity of only witness statements that have some direct connection and/or economic interest in the club,... Lave, Eagle, Diemshitz and likely Schwartz in some fashion,... then the times given by other witnesses fit ok into a viable half hour portrait. There is corroboration, validation. Conversely, If you accept only those accounts at their face value as given, then nothing cannot be reasonably reconciled to provide a viable scenario. No corroboration, no validation.

The men with the most at stake based on how the officials view this murder, with the least amount of corroboration, some time to play with...their storyline is based on a 1am arrival by Louis, which again is directly contradicted by 4 separate accounts, ones which appears to suggest a delay in their response to the situation.

That's what I see.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I cant address everything you posted there, but I can see that there is some confusion. Simply put, I believe that Louis arrived around 12:45, he found the body, people were then assembled by it, and discussions about what to do and say were had. I believe Issac K is sent out by himself before long, as he is quoted saying he was, and I believe the people that Spooner saw were as well. Spooner follows them back to the passageway, just after 1am Louis and Morris head out in diferent directions, as Eagle returns Issac K sees him and joins him.

Do you mean that the Israel Schwartz story was dreamt up by a few members of the club, while they were standing in the driveway near the body, in the period from just after 12:45, until nearly 1 am?

Let's have a man walking down from Commercial Rd, who sees another man walking ahead of himself, who stops to talk to the woman lying dead in front of us, who was then standing at the gates, and just when the first man gets level with the gates, the other man...
Yeh, sounds good Louis, but what about the fact that we never see prostitutes in Berner St? Why would the Whitechapel murderer come along here?
He's right Louis, no one will ever believe that story, it's just too weird and unlikely!
Yes, and what about witnesses? No one will have seen or heard any of these four people on the street, at that time!
Too bad, we need a story, and it's the best I can come up with before this girl goes cold. No let's get to work.
Isaac, you go that way. Morris, when Isaac comes back, you go up that way...

Something like that?

All the police times are fine as is...

Above you said 'just after 1am Louis and Morris head out in diferent directions'.
PC Lamb said he saw he two men running toward him at 'shortly before one o'clock', or 'at about one o'clock'.
Lamb and Collins are possibly onsite by 1 am.

The main witness statement from the street also fits fine with what I suggest. She didn't see Louis arrive at 1 because he arrived at 12:45ish, when she was evidently not at her door at that moment, being there "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50. From 12:50 until 1 she dictates what happened in view from her home. No Louis.

Spooner said he stood watch over the body for 'about five minutes', before Lamb got there.
Lamb and Collins are onsite by about 1 am, because Eagle and comrade went up to Commercial Rd to find police.
If Mortimer is on her doorstep for several minutes leading up to 1 am, she should see a lot of arrival and departures to the yard.
Therefore she should run to the yard, based on what she sees, but she is quoted as saying she heard noises when inside, and then goes out.
You don't have a coherent model.

There you are, the people I suggest have motive and time to manufacture the official version of events are the same ones that for the time of 12:40-12:45, made claims of the passageway and street that directly contradict the 4 corroborated witness accounts I mentioned. 4 almost identical versions of what transpired in the passageway at 12:45 ish. Blackwell suggested an earliest cut time, then modified it by around 10 minutes to around 12:46. If that was off by just a minute or 2, then what I suggest also fits the medical evidence. If the 2 second estimate of this event is accurate, this could have happened almost while Louis is pulling in.

What transpired in the yard, according to Eagle and Lave, is that they had been away from the property, and when they came back, they saw nothing unusual.
Tell me what time you have Lave returning inside.
As for time of death, didn't Blackwell say something like '20 minutes, 30 at the most'?

[Michael W Richards]

Do you mean that the Israel Schwartz story was dreamt up by a few members of the club, while they were standing in the driveway near the body, in the period from just after 12:45, until nearly 1 am?

No, they, or likely Wess himself, had all day to come up with this idea and story.

Let's have a man walking down from Commercial Rd, who sees another man walking ahead of himself, who stops to talk to the woman lying dead in front of us, who was then standing at the gates, and just when the first man gets level with the gates, the other man...
Yeh, sounds good Louis, but what about the fact that we never see prostitutes in Berner St? Why would the Whitechapel murderer come along here?
He's right Louis, no one will ever believe that story, it's just too weird and unlikely!
Yes, and what about witnesses? No one will have seen or heard any of these four people on the street, at that time!
Too bad, we need a story, and it's the best I can come up with before this girl goes cold. No let's get to work.
Isaac, you go that way. Morris, when Isaac comes back, you go up that way...

Something like that?

Ive suggested and stand by the possibility that Israel was there, at that time, and what he saw really took place in the passageway as he left via the side door. That keeps it out of view of anyone who might be at their door to the street, off and on. What I believe may have happened is that Wess or someone learned that he was going to make a statement about what he saw later that day, maybe still shaken up from actually seeing the murder, and Wess or someone convinces him that it would be better for the club if he were to say this happened out on the street. Then BSM would be the most probable culprit, and he obviously is place off club premises. Adding the Lipski, I think, could be a result of a desire to make a statement about how poorly a lot of the immigrant jews were received by many locals, and to garner sympathy for, not suspicion, about this murder. The person who suggests this to Mr Schwartz likely does so in a language that Israel speaks, he may well have been his translator too. Wess it seems translated for Goldstein on Tuesday night.



Above you said 'just after 1am Louis and Morris head out in diferent directions'.
PC Lamb said he saw he two men running toward him at 'shortly before one o'clock', or 'at about one o'clock'.
Lamb and Collins are possibly onsite by 1 am.

I did also say that when Issac we sent out near 12:45 that a couple of others were also sent. Spooner never later identified the jews he saw. But no-one mentions Issac being sent alone, even though he says so himself, and no-one mentions another couple of people before Issac[s], Louis and Eagle head out...so how can that be? Not too hard to figure that out.

Spooner said he stood watch over the body for 'about five minutes', before Lamb got there.
Lamb and Collins are onsite by about 1 am **(no, not one)**......, because Eagle and comrade went up to Commercial Rd to find police.
If Mortimer is on her doorstep for several minutes leading up to 1 am, she should see a lot of arrival and departures to the yard.
Therefore she should run to the yard, based on what she sees, but she is quoted as saying she heard noises when inside, and then goes out.
You don't have a coherent model.

Mortimer is at her door for the last 10 minutes, the first policeman are onsite after Louis and Morris went for help, they both say that was after Louis arrived at 1, so there is no reason to suspect that anything was going on in the street in front of the gates until after 1am. Goldstein walked past, looked in and kept going...while carrying a black bag of empty cigarette cartons in his hand past a passageway that housed cigarette makers..some of which were still awake according to their statements. I think he saw a gathering just inside the passageway and was shooed off.

What transpired in the yard, according to Eagle and Lave, is that they had been away from the property, and when they came back, they saw nothing unusual.
Tell me what time you have Lave returning inside.

Lave says he went out to the gates around 12:30 and was there for around 10 minutes, Eagle say he returned at 12:40. Eagle didn't say he saw nothing, he did say he "couldn't be sure' a dead woman lay in his direct path.

As for time of death, didn't Blackwell say something like '20 minutes, 30 at the most'?

Yes. 1:16 arrival. The second physician onsite at 1:30 said within the hour.

I hope there is some benefit having to repeat this over and over again, its not rocket science, I see this as a very small simple incident that can be understood better when the Ripper lenses are off before reading the data.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Mortimer is at her door for the last 10 minutes, the first policeman are onsite after Louis and Morris went for help, they both say that was after Louis arrived at 1, so there is no reason to suspect that anything was going on in the street in front of the gates until after 1am.

In #547, you said "Simply put, I believe that Louis arrived around 12:45"

You don't have a coherent model.

I hope there is some benefit having to repeat this over and over again, its not rocket science, I see this as a very small simple incident that can be understood better when the Ripper lenses are off before reading the data.

It's possibly harder than rocket science, and you possibly have your own set of lenses on.

[Michael W Richards]

Im not quite sure why you don't understand what I post, but Im saying Louis did leave after 1 like he said, but actually arrived at 12:45ish. 4 people say he was there then, and 1 with a view of the street at 1am didn't see or hear him at all from 12:50 until 1am.

And it is a very simple matter without the inclusion of a mysterious ripper and an a supposed interruption, both of which are not in evidence in this murder.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In The Echo, Oct 1, Diemschitz gives 2 versions of his entry into the yard.

THE STEWARD REPEATS HIS STORY.

There are a pair of iron-studded and iron-capped gates at the entrance to the yard, in which are one or two cottage residences, besides stables. These on Sunday morning, at one o'clock, were open- as is usually the case during the night. The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said. "There is no light near here, and the darkness is consequently much more intense between these two walls" - pointing to the walls of the Club and a house on the other side of the yard- "than out in the street. The gate was pushed back, and the wheel of my cart bumped against something. I struck a match to see what it was, but the wind blew it out. However, the flash was enough to show me that the [a?] person was on the ground either asleep or dead.

DISCOVERING THE VICTIM.

I struck another match, and then (pursued the steward) the scene that burst upon me completely appalled me. Without stopping to take a complete survey of the body, I hurried into the Club to see my "missis." I saw her inside the door, and hurriedly called some of the members of the club, who at once came down. You know what we found, Sir. The poor creature's throat was horribly cut. Her head lay towards the yard, and her feet were pointing towards the street. There was a great pool of blood on one of the stones, and some of it had trickled down into that gutter" - pointing to a perforated stone grating.

In this version (which Diemschitz has apparently given previously), he implies that the right-side wheel of the cart collides with the victim.
A little later, he must have realized that this impact would have left a clear record of the event, on the victims body - a record which will not be apparent.
Therefore, he has to make up a somewhat more plausible story.

From the same edition of The Echo:

I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was very dark. As I drove in my pony shied. When I looked down I saw something on the ground, and as I did not know what it was I tried to lift it up with my whip handle. As I could not do this I jumped down at once and struck a match.

So the story of the shying pony, and whip handle used to prod and then attempt to lift the object, were concocted late on the Sunday, or Monday morning.

The wheel bumping against 'something' story, is not feasible, because Stride was not found to have been injured from the force of the wheel of a pony-drawn barrow, running into her backside, and possibly continuing to roll right over her body.

On the other hand, the whip handle as probe story, is vaguely plausible.
In practice though, it doesn't work.
The body is displaced from the whip carrying arm, in 3 dimensions:

• vertical (above the ground)
• horizontal (across the lane)
• lateral (along the lane)

The whip and arm length combined, cover a little more than the first dimension.
There is still a few feet to go.
Diemschitz cannot lean that far, and on no occasion does he indicate making any effort to lean toward the body.

Diemschitz also claimed to arrive home, just after one o'clock.
Arbeter Fraint admitted the murder occurred at a quarter to one.
We have to face the reality that Diemschitz' story is probably a total concoction.

[Michael W Richards]

I have to say that just the act of analyzing these statements here gives me some satisfaction, It seems like forever Ive been not only suggesting that Liz should not be a Canonical Five member but also that the club staff presented a story which was, at least in part, fabricated. The comings and goings with individual accounts don't work with other witnesses, who in multiples, recalled things quite differently.

Lets put it this way....if you could accept that the club staff covered up any improprieties or delays in responding with a story, then doesn't that make the fact that Jews are the subject of the GSG more intriguing? And make it more likely to have been put there after Kates killing when her killer left the cloth? The exact time is unclear, but it appears he would have had around 70 minutes between leaving Mitre and then leaving the apron section. Seems plausible to me. But that delay in time would suggest he had heard of Strides murder and went indoors after the kill....to drop the kidney in spirits?...then go back out with the apron and chalk. That's where Im stuck. Is it worth the risk of going back onto the streets where 2 murders have just taken place, carrying a piece of evidence from one of the crime scenes, just to insinuate that the Jews should be blamed for something? Does this same guy have ties with local anti-Semitic violence....seems to indicate a strong hatred or resentment towards Jews to bring him out again to accuse them of something, would this be the first time we have seen this guys anti Jew sentiments?

Might be a clue that could lead to Kates killer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Does this same guy have ties with local anti-Semitic violence....seems to indicate a strong hatred or resentment towards Jews to bring him out again to accuse them of something, would this be the first time we have seen this guys anti Jew sentiments?

Having thought about this some more, I now don't think the chalked message (I refuse to call it 'graffito') is anti-Jewish, in any sense.
Nor is 'Juwes' an acronym.
What the message refers to, is along a very different lines to that normally supposed.
Will tell you later, though.

Might be a clue that could lead to Kates killer.

Not only that.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here's a cart whip made in 1884. The handle is 4 ft 9 ins long (143cms).

I used Google Images to reverse lookup this image. Link to the search result page
Currently, the first search result goes to a page on ebay...

Victorian Horse Carriage Driving Whip H/M Silver 1884 'G&J_ZAIR Makers London'

As you can see from the pictures, this is a high quality and fairly elaborately made whip.
I would suppose that 'H/M silver' means 'handle metallic silver'.
The dimensions are:
143cm shaft & handle
80cm lash
A 2cm width of the handle.

The ebay item title makes clear that this is a horse carriage driving whip - it is not a costermongers pony & barrow whip!
This was surely evident when the picture was posted, and described - ambiguously, given the topic of this thread - as a 'cart whip'.

Baxter and the jury would have known costermongers barrows and whip sizes, there is nothing odd or unusual in Diemshitz's description.

The first point may have been true - not so the second.

Diemschitz (MA, Oct 2): I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow.

Sitting in it, as opposed to sitting on top of it, would have put Louis right up the front of the barrow - close to the pony's arse.
He could have almost reached out and tapped the pony with his hand, and that is reason enough suppose that he had a short whip, with a correspondingly short handle.

I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match ...

The notion that Louis was able to prod the 'object' on the ground with his whip handle, while still seated in the barrow, let alone try to lift it, is fanciful.