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  • Apparently your theory needs to be selective to work, here's the other picture I posted.
    Click image for larger version

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    dustymiller
    aka drstrange

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    • Sitting "in" the barrow significantly increases the distance between driver and animal. Click image for larger version

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      dustymiller
      aka drstrange

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      • Carriage whips and carts.
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        dustymiller
        aka drstrange

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        • Click image for larger version

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          These children would be the same distance as Diemshitz, if he was "in" the cart.
          Last edited by drstrange169; 01-26-2021, 07:35 AM.
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            I used Google Images to reverse lookup this image. Link to the search result page
            Currently, the first search result goes to a page on ebay...

            Victorian Horse Carriage Driving Whip H/M Silver 1884 'G&J_ZAIR Makers London'

            As you can see from the pictures, this is a high quality and fairly elaborately made whip.
            I would suppose that 'H/M silver' means 'handle metallic silver'.
            The dimensions are:
            143cm shaft & handle
            80cm lash
            A 2cm width of the handle.

            The ebay item title makes clear that this is a horse carriage driving whip - it is not a costermongers pony & barrow whip!
            This was surely evident when the picture was posted, and described - ambiguously, given the topic of this thread - as a 'cart whip'.



            The first point may have been true - not so the second.

            Diemschitz (MA, Oct 2): I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow.

            Sitting in it, as opposed to sitting on top of it, would have put Louis right up the front of the barrow - close to the pony's arse.
            He could have almost reached out and tapped the pony with his hand, and that is reason enough suppose that he had a short whip, with a correspondingly short handle.

            I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match ...

            The notion that Louis was able to prod the 'object' on the ground with his whip handle, while still seated in the barrow, let alone try to lift it, is fanciful.
            Didn’t Diemschutz just say ‘whip” and not “my x inches long costermongers whip made by Messrs....etc?”

            This is another massive non-issue in an attempt to prop up a non existent cover up.

            Regards

            Herlock




            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
            As night descends upon this fabled street:
            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
              Sitting "in" the barrow significantly increases the distance between driver and animal. Click image for larger version

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              Id say that the driver of this cart, if he reached over the side, would have been able to touch the wheel hub with little effort. Diemschutz could have prodded Stride with a reasonable sized cucumber.

              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • Posted in error,then reposted.
                Last edited by DJA; 01-26-2021, 09:45 PM.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  I used Google Images to reverse lookup this image. Link to the search result page
                  Currently, the first search result goes to a page on ebay...

                  Victorian Horse Carriage Driving Whip H/M Silver 1884 'G&J_ZAIR Makers London'

                  As you can see from the pictures, this is a high quality and fairly elaborately made whip.
                  I would suppose that 'H/M silver' means 'handle metallic silver'.
                  The dimensions are:
                  143cm shaft & handle
                  80cm lash
                  A 2cm width of the handle.

                  The ebay item title makes clear that this is a horse carriage driving whip - it is not a costermongers pony & barrow whip!
                  This was surely evident when the picture was posted, and described - ambiguously, given the topic of this thread - as a 'cart whip'.



                  The first point may have been true - not so the second.

                  Diemschitz (MA, Oct 2): I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow.

                  Sitting in it, as opposed to sitting on top of it, would have put Louis right up the front of the barrow - close to the pony's arse.
                  He could have almost reached out and tapped the pony with his hand, and that is reason enough suppose that he had a short whip, with a correspondingly short handle.

                  I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down at once and struck a match ...

                  The notion that Louis was able to prod the 'object' on the ground with his whip handle, while still seated in the barrow, let alone try to lift it, is fanciful.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                    Apparently your theory needs to be selective to work, here's the other picture I posted.
                    Click image for larger version

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                    And in response to my theory, you apparently needed to post false evidence.
                    I posted a photo of a representative costermonger barrow, with dimensions. I also gave relevant dimensions for Dutfield's Yard, and the position of the victim.
                    In contrast, you posted a photo of a carriage whip, and a cartoonish drawing of a costermonger with pony and cart.
                    At least the drawing hints at one relevant fact, though - that the driving position was probably right down the front, close to the pony.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                      Sitting "in" the barrow significantly increases the distance between driver and animal. Click image for larger version

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                      The man is sitting on a beam across the top of the framework. I would call that 'on', and not 'in' the cart.
                      That position would place him about 3' above ground. The London Costermonger has a whip that seems to extend from about hip to shoulder - 2 feet at most.
                      So even if Stride had ended up directly under the centreline of the barrow (that is, after being walked over by the pony), there is already the likelihood of a reaching deficit, even before the lateral offset is considered.

                      Also, while a costermonger barrow could be generically called a cart, it is actually part cart, part wheelbarrow. It has two legs.
                      The layout, balance, dimensions, and driving position are quite different to an ordinary cart, even though looking superficially similar to this cart photo (probably made by the same company). Apples and oranges.
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • >> ... you posted a photo of a carriage whip<<

                        Correct because if he was sitting "in" the cart, he would need a carriage whip.


                        >>At least the drawing hints at one relevant fact, though - that the driving position was probably right down the front, close to the pony.<<


                        Yes if the cart were full of fruit and he had nowhere else to sit, as per the picture, but since it was jewellery, he would be driving in a position that he could see if anyone was trying to steal his goods. Pretty basic stuff.
                        dustymiller
                        aka drstrange

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                          &gt;&gt; ... you posted a photo of a carriage whip&lt;&lt;

                          Correct because if he was sitting "in" the cart, he would need a carriage whip.


                          &gt;&gt;At least the drawing hints at one relevant fact, though - that the driving position was probably right down the front, close to the pony.&lt;&lt;


                          Yes if the cart were full of fruit and he had nowhere else to sit, as per the picture, but since it was jewellery, he would be driving in a position that he could see if anyone was trying to steal his goods. Pretty basic stuff.
                          You're missing a crucial difference between a barrow, and an ordinary cart.
                          The driver of a barrow has to sit at the opposite end to the legs, to tip the balance off the legs, so that the load goes completely onto the wheels.
                          He doesn't get to choose where to sit, based on security of goods or a better view, or other considerations.
                          Compare that to the cart driver, who sits almost directly over the wheels.

                          This point about the balance of the barrow, and the related driving position, is why all the pictures of generic carts posted in this thread, are mostly irrelevant.
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Can anyone be certain about the position that Diemschutz adopted to prod Stride’s body? How can assumptions be made when we don’t know what position he was in, we don’t know Diemschutz reach or how agile he was, I’m assuming that we can’t know the exact height of the cart, we can’t know what type (therefore) length of whip that he used. Your theory appears to be based on, if the cart was x high and if the whip was x long and if Diemschutz could only reach x far?

                            So aren’t you simply claiming certain knowledge of 3 unknowns/uncertainties to create a mystery?
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                            As night descends upon this fabled street:
                            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                            Comment


                            • As I stated many posts ago, if its a two wheel cart , you sit above the wheel axle, not at the front of the cart, therefore you have a longer whip and could easily prod an object on the ground, like SH said... with a cucumber!!

                              Comment


                              • It’s just another Conspiracy Theory. NBFN comes up with them at the drop of a hat
                                Regards

                                Herlock




                                “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                                As night descends upon this fabled street:
                                A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                                The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                                Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                                And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                                Comment

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