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A Whip and a Prod

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  • A Whip and a Prod

    At the inquest into the death of Elizabeth Stride, Louis Diemschutz had this to say about his entry into Dutfield's Yard at 1 AM, September 30, 1888:

    I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match.

    This thread is about Diemschutz' claim to have touched the object on the ground - Elizabeth Stride - with his whip handle.

    Thanks to this post we can get a good approximation of the dimensions of Diemschutz' cart.
    It looked something like this...

    Click image for larger version

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    The cart is 97cm high, 98cm wide and 226cm long.
    (I will do all the dimensions in centimetres.)

    I cannot find a good picture with a pony and driver, pulling and driving a barrow like this, but from descriptions I have read, the pony would be connected on the left side, and the driver sits close to the front, with lower legs dangling through the curved struts connecting base to upper frame.
    Consequently, we can imagine the cart moving right to left, with the corrugated door representing the wall of the IWMEC building.
    By the way, if the driver alternatively sat at the rear, some sort of seat would be required, resulting in the driver being higher off the ground, and in this case, further from the body. This seating position would also use up more of the precious carrying space.

    Diemschutz had this to say about where he stopped in relation to the body:

    A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
    [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.

    So Diemschutz has gone some way past the body when he stops.
    Stride lay with feet at gate end, and head at yard end.
    Consequently, it will be assumed that Diemschutz prods at Stride's head, as this is the part of her body, he is closest to.

    In this Casebook dissertation, the author (Fisherman) estimates Stride's head to be 35-40cm from the wall, and uses this graphic to illustrate...

    Yard end
    Click image for larger version

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    Gate/Berner St end

    The red lines represent a carriage's wheel span and path.

    Fisherman gives a lane width of 280cm.
    I will also assume these lengths:

    Ground to seat/deck height: 65cm
    Seat to mid-shoulder of driver: 50cm
    Half-wingspan of driver: 85cm

    If the head distance from wall is taken to be 38cm, the midpoint of the lane to head distance is: (280 / 2) - 38 = 102cm

    Mid-shoulder height from ground, is seat height plus shoulder from seat height: 65 + 50 = 115cm

    If the cart enters the yard with equal distance to each wall, Diemschutz' midpoint is horizontally offset from Stride's head by 102cm, and vertically offset by 115cm.
    Now we know that Diemschutz claimed that his pony shied to the left, and we also know he would be capable of leaning a little to his right.
    Let's assume these two factors cancel, and therefore assume the cart goes exactly up the middle of the lane.
    Using the Pythagorean theorem, we can calculate the distance from Diemschutz' midpoint at shoulder height, to Stride's head:

    Sqrt of (115^2 + 102^2) = 154cm

    Subtracting the half-wingspan length (85cm) from this, gives us 69cm.

    Therefore, 69cm is the distance from fingertip to just reaching the head.
    This number may be optimistic, given what Diemschutz says about his stopping position relative to the body - Stride's head is somewhat further away (than if directly in line), and she is now over Diemschutz' right shoulder (relative to his forward-facing position). Therefore, she is more awkward to reach, and increasingly so as the assumed distance past the body is increased.
    This means that the actual horizontal offset (of driver to body) may have been significantly more than the number calculated above.

    Let's assume that Diemschutz "uses up" 10cm of whip handle, due to his grip of it.
    We now need to calculate the (outstretched) hand to head span surplus – that is, the remainder after subtracting handle length from the distance to the body (with allowance for grip), using this equation:

    span_surplus = (handle_length – grip_offset) - distance_to_body

    Assuming a handle length of 25cm, gives us: (25 - 10) - 69 = -54cm

    In other words, there is a span (or reaching) deficit of 54cm.

    Modern pony and cart whips I have looked at are around 65-75cm in total length. Diemschutz claims to only use the whip handle to prod with - that is, the stiff section of the whip. Therefore, to reach the body, Diemschutz requires a whip with a handle length of around 80cm – that is, longer that the entire length of a modern whip.

    Of obvious importance is the distance of the whip hand to pony's rump, which is the part of the pony the whip is intended to contact. In the forward seating position, this would only be around the 65-75cm distance that modern whips lengths are adequate for. This means a whip with a handle of around 80cm (or more) plus strap, would be excessively long, as well as excessively heavy, and therefore tiresome on the arm.

    Now let's consider if the assumption of the cart travelling exactly up the middle of the lane, is a reasonable one.
    The following day, Diemschutz had this to say in an interview...

    Louis Diemschutz (The Evening Standard, October 1): My pony is frisky and apt to shy, though not much, and it struck me when I was passing through the double gates into the yard that he wanted to keep too much to the left side against the wall. I could not make out what was the matter, so I bent my head to see if there were anything to frighten him. Then I noticed there was something unusual about the ground, but I could not tell what it was, except that it was not level. I mean there was something there like a little heap; but I thought it was only mud, or something of the kind, and I did not take much notice of it; still I touched it with my whip, and then I was able to tell it was not mud.

    Based on this, we could suppose that the left wheel rides in the left side rut/depression/track, formed by carriages as they enter and exit the yard (the left red line in the body graphic, above).
    This would have given the cart a noticeable leftward lean.
    Fisherman approximates the carriage wheel span to be 200-210cm. Let's assume it to be 206cm (the even number makes for whole number division).
    The lane is 280cm wide.
    Therefore, the cart's left wheel sits (280 - 206) / 2 = 37cm from the left wall.
    The cart itself is 98cm wide, so the midpoint of the cart (and driver) are a further 49cm from the left wall, for a total of 86cm.
    This gives us a horizontal offset to head of (280 - 86) - 38 = 156cm

    Recalculating the overall distance gives us:

    Sqrt of (115^2 + 156^2) = 194cm

    Less the half-wingspan is 109cm.

    This results in a span/reaching deficit of 94cm (|(25 – 10) – 109| = 94)

    These deficits indicate that in attempting to prod the body with a 25cm whip handle, Diemschutz falls short by around 54-94cm.
    Even doubling the whip handle to 50cm leaves him 29-69cm short.
    Tripling to (around total whip length of) 75cm, and the deficit is 4-44cm.
    It is only when we get to a 1m whip handle that the claim to have prodded the body becomes feasible, and then only when the cart travels close to the middle of the lane.

    Based on these calculations, we can see that Diemschutz' claim to have prodded Stride with his whip while seated in his cart, looks suspect.
    Given that Diemschutz claims to have discovered the body of Liz Stride, and has apparently given misleading statements about his interaction with the body, he must now be regarded as a person of great interest.
    Attached Files
    Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

  • #2
    The gates were 9'2" wide,so 280 cm.

    The "whip" was almost certainly a stick.

    Stride had assumed a foetal position and is very well represented by Fish.

    Mum's side of the family are horse people ..... generations of trotting trainers,vets,breeders,transport,etc going back to the Famine in County Down.

    You are flogging a dead ..... pony.
    Last edited by DJA; 01-14-2020, 05:12 PM.
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

    Comment


    • #3
      "Louis Diemschutz, along with Isaac Kozebrodsky, was arrested in March 1889 during a disturbance at the International Working Men's Club and charged with assaulting a police officer. Diemschutz was sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour as well as paying £40 and producing two sureties of £20 each, to be forfeited if he failed to be of good behaviour for twelve months"
      1. The Times, 9th, 26th April 1889
      2. East London Advertiser, 27th April 1889

      Whatever the truth is, I think they were trying to hide something, Sir R. Andersons words just come to mind.



      The Baron

      Comment


      • #4
        DJA:

        The gates were 9'2" wide,so 280 cm.
        This is the distance I have used, and quoted (twice).

        The "whip" was almost certainly a stick.
        So you say.
        If whip and handle are one and the same thing, why does Diemschutz refer specifically to using the handle, and on multiple occasions?
        Furthermore, a stick whip doesn't get you out of trouble - it could be a stick and still not be long enough.

        Stride had assumed a foetal position and is very well represented by Fish.
        Hence the reason I quote and borrow from him.

        You are flogging a dead ..... pony.
        You are clinging to a sinking ..... reputation.
        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Baron View Post
          Whatever the truth is, I think they were trying to hide something, Sir R. Andersons words just come to mind.
          The question is, will they be blamed for something?
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • #6
            Click image for larger version

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            • #7
              Showmaster Driving Whip | Greg Grant Saddlery
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • #8
                I have to admire you enthusiasm, unfortunately where it comes undone is that you don't know anything at all about the subject matter.




                >>The cart is 97cm high, 98cm wide and 226cm long.<<

                The cart would have been roughly 2ft high and 2 ft wide (61 cms) by 5ft (152cms)






                >>I cannot find a good picture with a pony and driver, pulling and driving a barrow like this ... <<







                >> Diemschutz has gone some way past the body when he stops.
                Stride lay with feet at gate end, and head at yard end. Consequently, it will be assumed that Diemschutz prods at Stride's head, as this is the part of her body, he is closest to.<<



                As has already been shown to you. Diemshitz prodded Mrs Stride with his whip THEN parked his cart and went back. Baxter understood this, the jury understood this and just about everyone bar you understands this.

                "Could you see anything?-I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement. I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. There was nothing white about it. I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down ..."

                The part of the body closest to him would have been Mrs Strides back or bottom.

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                Last edited by drstrange169; 01-15-2020, 04:11 AM.
                dustymiller
                aka drstrange

                Comment


                • #9


                  >>Modern pony and cart whips I have looked at are around 65-75cm in total length. Diemschutz claims to only use the whip handle to prod with - that is, the stiff section of the whip. Therefore, to reach the body, Diemschutz requires a whip with a handle length of around 80cm – that is, longer that the entire length of a modern whip.<<

                  Click image for larger version

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                  As can be seen from this picture from Henry Mayhew's book, his whip seems to be 4 to 5 feet long.

                  Here's a cart whip made in 1884. The handle is 4 ft 9 ins long (143cms).

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                  Baxter and the jury would have known costermongers barrows and whip sizes, there is nothing odd or unusual in Diemshitz's description.
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey NBFN,

                    The cart you pictured in your first post would have had the pony on the right, not left. Also the driver would sit, as per all two wheel carts, barrows, sulkies, over the wheels to properly balance the cart - weight distribution etc - too far forward and all the weight goes on the pony, too far back and the pony lifts off the ground (leverage).

                    The driver would therefore have sat on a box or a plank running parallel with the axle. He would have used a whip/stick like the one pictured above by drstrange. He's not racing the pony, he just need to give a little tap to get it going.

                    Diemschutz, would have slid over along the plank, from the middle, and prodded the body.

                    Based on this and others' feed back I think you may need to redo your calculations (and perhaps theory).

                    thanks
                    Ven

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      >>The cart is 97cm high, 98cm wide and 226cm long.<<

                      The cart would have been roughly 2ft high and 2 ft wide (61 cms) by 5ft (152cms)
                      I took the dimensions from the webpage with the antique barrow for sale. That is, the photo source.
                      2ft high would mean driver sits little more than a foot off the ground. I don't think so.

                      As has already been shown to you. Diemshitz prodded Mrs Stride with his whip THEN parked his cart and went back. Baxter understood this, the jury understood this and just about everyone bar you understands this.

                      "Could you see anything?-I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement. I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. There was nothing white about it. I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up, but I could not. I jumped down ..."
                      The quote you give contradicts what you are trying to push.
                      Once again, Diemschutz at inquest:

                      I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match.
                      No parking ever occurs!
                      It's just a fantasy you are trying to push to explain away, why, when the crowd gathers around Stride, pony and cart have magically disappeared.
                      As for Baxter, the jury, and just about everyone else "understanding this", well, how could you possibly know that?

                      The part of the body closest to him would have been Mrs Strides back or bottom.
                      No. Diemschutz claims to stop past the body, but within prodding range. Fisherman's diagram indicates he is therefore closest to the head.

                      Here's a cart whip made in 1884. The handle is 4 ft 9 ins long (143cms).
                      That's at least 2ft longer than required for a costermonger's barrow.
                      That whip would be better suited for the type of cart (or buggy) in the video at the start of the other thread, in which driver sits much further from horse/pony.

                      Baxter and the jury would have known costermongers barrows and whip sizes, there is nothing odd or unusual in Diemshitz's description.
                      They may, but that is not enough. They needed to examine and verify the actual pony, cart & whip, and compare these against the dimensions of the lane. Did they?
                      There's is nothing odd or unusual about Diemschutz' description if one just casually follows the story. Then it sounds plausible - and that is the danger.

                      I have to admire you enthusiasm, unfortunately where it comes undone is that you don't know anything at all about the subject matter.
                      Your definition of 'know' apparently includes inserting words into quotes to change their meaning, and reading entire actions into quotes, which they in no way support.
                      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Does changing the pony from the left to the right ( of your #1 post ) and the position of the driver change anything for you? (which also changes the whip/stick length)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Whip and barrow have to be shown to match.

                          Diemschutz story works (for some) because of it's superficial plausibility.
                          Dig deeper and it begins to fall apart.

                          Attention should now turn to inside the IWMEC.
                          That is where "Jack the Ripper" was conceived.
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wow NBFN,

                            I just think you lost all credibility.

                            You spent half a page on diagrams and equations ( we now have to "show and match"!!! wow again... but i think we did) to try and justify your theory only for it to be blown away...and yet you still want to go on with it!

                            From your diagram. the horse would lead from the right of the "barrow" not he left as you say.
                            The driver would sit above the wheels/axle not "...and the driver sits close to the front, with lower legs dangling through the curved struts connecting base to upper frame." (your front being the left of the diagram!!! so facing backwards!!)
                            As the driver is sitting in the middle of the barrow he needs a long handled "whip".

                            please answer these issues and/or recalculate your so precise formulas

                            Ven

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ven,
                              the cart is designed for carrying goods, not for the driver to stretch out legs.
                              When the driver sits at left/front, he pushes down that part of the barrow, lifting the legs at rear, and leveling the upper frame relative to the ground.
                              With legs going through struts at left/front, the bulk of the deck remains a platform for wares, with just a bit for the driver's backside.
                              That is the most efficient arrangement (and most comfortable).
                              A poor guy like Louis Diemschutz (and the club members were indeed very poor), is not going to have a nice seat that allows him to put his feet on the deck, and have a nice view of the world. That costs money and wastes space.

                              The calculations are based on the barrow example given, and my understanding of the drivers position and distance from pony.
                              If you don't agree with something I've done, plug your numbers into the simple formulas, and show us all how to do it right.
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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