A Whip and a Prod

[Michael W Richards]

The stands have been replaced by shafts.

Apart from that it is the same model.

It has been modified to travel 20 miles instead of being pushed around close to the market.

Originally those carts were used to transport furniture cabinets around.

The market traders,costermongers and shops close to the markets,particularly the Spitalfields Market asked the Hiller brothers to manufacture them as barrows.
The Hillers rented them out on a weekly basis.
After 1991 when the last Hiller retired,another firm took over the hire business in 1993 and rebranded the carts Howard,Wheler Street,Spitalfields.You can see that on the bright green cart with red wheels.
Same carts.

DJA,

You might want to check October 5th and 6th of 1888, although it appears my "high" tag was inappropriate. I had thought that something significant was pending. The thing to carry away here is obviously that a woman who had been actively engaged in cleaning for Jews is outside a Jewish club when it needs cleaning. Dressed nicely and with recently added appointments. There is very little description of the type and dimensions of the cart he used, so "same cart" is little on the heavy side. As Im sure you know there were many variations on a "cart", including vendor style market carts that converted to selling carts, which look nothing like the images posted.

Oh, and I did point out that your contention of Liz and BSM being seen in the immediate area for 75 minutes is quite odd. I can see why you didn't find it worthy to address the entire post.

In factual terms, its a quite interesting story that Louis gives about his arrival, lighting the match, running in to see if his wife is ok...when 4 witnesses have him by the dying woman, along with some others, at around 12:45..and the estimated earliest cut time given is just about that same time.

[DJA]

Way past the time when you need to substantiate the garbage you continue to post.

The 5th and 6th of October were simply the new month of Chesvan.

[Michael W Richards]

Way past the time when you need to substantiate the garbage you continue to post.

The 5th and 6th of October were simply the new month of Chesvan.

Being unobtrusive and enigmatic is fine DJA...just don't crap on my doorstep again. You post your ideas, who you believe did what you believe they did, and steer clear of all the known evidence. You don't see value in discussing things from that perspective. Ok.

Just don't be impolite when others prefer discussing the knowns instead of the "ideas".

[Michael W Richards]

Hers an example of what offends me, some literary masturbation I suppose...

1. You claim to know precisely what kind of cart Diemshutz commandeered, so please provide evidence where the cart was described in enough detail to do so.

2. You said that BSM and Liz are seen in the immediate area for 75 minutes, please provide a single source that makes that a reality.

"My Jack was a fan of Spinoza,Stride and BS man seemed to be hanging around the club (or within 100 meters of it) for 75 minutes"

And what the hell is this...

"If BS man was Frank Carter,an army sapper moonlighting as "muscle",might he have given up when Jack did not turn up with a blackmail payment including his dues.Would explain the scene where Liz was dragged out of the yard. With BS man gone and Eddowes a no show,did Stride decide to risk waiting!My Jack was an effeminate physician,about an inch "taller" than Liz."

"Frank Carter, Jacks blackmail payment, Eddowes a no show, effeminate physician"....maybe its best to just keep a gibberish diary for yourself. And by the by there is no BSM in any Inquest records..anywhere.

[Michael W Richards]

"Cheshvan always has a two-day Rosh Chodesh, the second of which, the first of the new month, always falls on a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday or Shabbat"

[DJA]

October 1888

	1 26th of Tishrei, 5649	2 27th of Tishrei, 5649	3 28th of Tishrei, 5649	4 29th of Tishrei, 5649	5 30th of Tishrei, 5649 Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan	6 1st of Cheshvan, 5649 Parshas Noach Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan

[Michael W Richards]

Point being there was an observable event beginning on which Liz Stride was killed on the eve of. Something I had posted. And what was contested.

[Michael W Richards]

Back to thread premises, I could see Louis using his whip to prod or poke at the body when he found it, I can also see why he would call for people in the club when he found it. What I don't see is any hard evidence that his initial arrival time to the gates was just after 1. Save Fannys belief that when she heard a cart and horse shortly after 1am that it must have been him arriving. It certainly wasn't at 1, as he contended when he said "precisely", and stated he got the time from a neighborhood clock.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Attached is the 'photo Josh posted.
Haven't bothered doing all the measurements.The body is the same as "ours". In fact the internal part of the body is very similar in size to a single bed.
Surmise the wheels are 20".
Vehicles are about weight distribution and driver comfort and safety.The upward fulcrum is handy in this case.
Louis was going to a bit of trouble by hiring out a cart and horse to travel ~ 20 miles and spend around 10 hours selling jewelry.
Look at the way he dresses.He is earning good money.He has the right product and knows where his market segment is.

Two Jews walk into a bar and ..... one of them buys it

The Jews behind 40 Berner Street were not poor.
They were helping out the newer arrivals.

Same thing with the soup kitchen at 6 Fashion Street.
The committee behind that endeavour is on the Internet. Only remember Mrs Frankenstein.

The idea of a thoroughbred whip being used on a barrow pony is ludicrous. No offense meant.

Best of luck.

What we are looking for is a costermonger's barrow.
The red and green device is exactly that.
This cart maybe one.
This cart is quite different in important ways.
Deck space is sacrificed for visibility, and a more comfortable leg position.
It appears to function primarily as a one-person transportation device, with a bit of luggage space.
A barrow, in contrast, puts the focus on the movement of stuff.
Note that the color photo device has handles - it can be used as a "wheelbarrow" if necessary.
The B&W device does not appear to have handles, because it is not a barrow!

As for the seating location, driver is obviously further back in the B&W device, than the color.
So a longer whip is definitely going to be used.
This gets "us" closer to the body, although the greater seating height removes some of this advantage.
Without actual numbers, it would be hard to tell if this sort of cart would "do the trick".
As mentioned previously, we have to be very mindful of Diemschutz' reference to pulling up past the body.
Another question is; do longer whips have the same ratio of handle to strap as shorter ones?

Did I say a thoroughbred whip was used, or a thoroughbred length whip?

Re Louis' wealth, I only mentioned that to add weight to the notion of him wanting to make maximum use of cart deck space.
I got the impression of club members being poor, from this wiki page.
Does regarding him as moderately well off make much difference to the central issue of this thread?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The stands have been replaced by shafts.

Apart from that it is the same model.

It has been modified to travel 20 miles instead of being pushed around close to the market.

Originally those carts were used to transport furniture cabinets around.

The market traders,costermongers and shops close to the markets,particularly the Spitalfields Market asked the Hiller brothers to manufacture them as barrows.
The Hillers rented them out on a weekly basis.
After 1991 when the last Hiller retired,another firm took over the hire business in 1993 and rebranded the carts Howard,Wheler Street,Spitalfields.You can see that on the bright green cart with red wheels.
Same carts.

Given the photo was posted with no information, can we even say it was taken in England?

[DJA]

Interesting Wiki.

Five members,count them ..... one two,three,four,five ..... were questioned and searched.
Guess what?
They all agreed on 1am,not 15 minutes before as you allege.

[DJA]

OP mentioned a thoroughbred whip ~ 11 hours ago,not you.

[DJA]

As mentioned,Josh originally posted the b&w photo.
It was taken at Coventry Gardens Market.
For sale @ $15.Coster in donkey cart.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Back to thread premises, I could see Louis using his whip to prod or poke at the body when he found it, I can also see why he would call for people in the club when he found it. What I don't see is any hard evidence that his initial arrival time to the gates was just after 1. Save Fannys belief that when she heard a cart and horse shortly after 1am that it must have been him arriving. It certainly wasn't at 1, as he contended when he said "precisely", and stated he got the time from a neighborhood clock.

I may post some more calculations with related comments later, and bring in other elements, such as the side door.
For now, perhaps keep in mind two fundamental points:

1. horse/pony & cart/buggy whips have a specific purpose - they are not designed for prodding ground objects
2. the lane was designed for getting carriages into and out of the work yard - it is overkill for a costermonger's barrow

Louis has had an easy run for over over 131 years.
People should stop visualizing his story, and start calculating it!

Kozebrodsky: I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood.

What is the best current theory for explaining how Diemschutz manages to inform Kozebrodsky of the unknown object in the yard, ~20 minutes before he actually finds it?
Also, did he hunt around the club for Kozebrodsky, in particular, or did he just grab whoever was there (after finding his wife), who happened to be Kozebrodsky?
Why might he want a particular person with him?
Did Kozebrodsky have a potentially useful weapon, such as a knife?
Given that that would seem to have been complete overkill, again - why not grab anyone?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As mentioned,Josh originally posted the b&w photo.
It was taken at Coventry Gardens Market.
For sale @ $15.Coster in donkey cart.

Thanks