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A Whip and a Prod

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  • #31
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    >> I took the dimensions from the webpage with the antique barrow for sale. That is, the photo source.<<

    So we have, on the one hand, someone in 2020 quickly looking on the internet and misreading what was written on the site and a contemporary Victorian advertisement from the makers of the cart. Which one should we believe do you think?

    (f.y.i. the dimensions quoted on the internet site were including the railings on top of the cart, the original does not.
    If you took a bit more care,three of your more obvious mistakes would not be on this thread.
    Not being pedantic,I just let them go as you are usually an excellent contributor.

    Time was taken to find the actual type of "barrow like a costermonger's,drawn by a pony".
    It is the same as the excellent 'photo posted by Joshua,sans stand legs.
    If you took the time to compare the two,some useful measurements could be deduced.

    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #32
      For what it's worth,those barrows were made by Hiller Brothers of Bethnal Green.
      Their design is quite distinctive.
      In fact the green and red one pictured on both threads was refurbished not long before the firm closed in 1991.
      Bob Hiller died in 2016 and their last premises at 64 Squirries Street was demolished.

      Attached Files
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #33
        That bottom image is human powered, not horse drawn.
        Michael Richards

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        • #34
          As "nothing" is happening,there is a chance to add a bit to the discussion.

          Over a decade ago a bit of time was spent on the 1881 Census.
          One profession that was popular amongst the Jews of Spitalfields was diamond cutter.
          Does Louis Diemschutz look like someone that would be selling "cheap" jewelry?

          The type of cart he used were hired out by Hillier Bros.
          Usually on a weekly basis,although surely daily rates were available.
          Fair chance the pony was also hired from the hotel where it was stabled.

          Did Louis shelter from the rain earlier that night on his way home?
          Were the gates left open later than usual for him?

          My Jack was a fan of Spinoza,Stride and BS man seemed to be hanging around the club (or within 100 meters of it) for 75 minutes.
          With Stride's history of working for Jews, was the club's yard an agreed meeting place?
          If BS man was Frank Carter,an army sapper moonlighting as "muscle",might he have given up when Jack did not turn up with a blackmail payment including his dues.
          Would explain the scene where Liz was dragged out of the yard.
          With BS man gone and Eddowes a no show,did Stride decide to risk waiting!
          My Jack was an effeminate physician,about an inch "taller" than Liz.

          Alternatively ..... did Liz meet her end during an unsuccessful diamond heist

          Attached Files
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DJA View Post
            As "nothing" is happening,there is a chance to add a bit to the discussion.

            Over a decade ago a bit of time was spent on the 1881 Census.
            One profession that was popular amongst the Jews of Spitalfields was diamond cutter.
            Does Louis Diemschutz look like someone that would be selling "cheap" jewelry?


            There were a few cigarette makers in the cottage in the passageway, and I don't imagine anyone from a club run for and by poor socialists to be selling expensive anything at the markets.

            The type of cart he used were hired out by Hillier Bros.
            Usually on a weekly basis,although surely daily rates were available.
            Fair chance the pony was also hired from the hotel where it was stabled.


            The pony and presumably the cart were kept in George Yard. Considering that there were unused stables in the back of the yard on Berner, one might assume that if Louis owned the cart and horse he might have kept them there.

            Did Louis shelter from the rain earlier that night on his way home?
            Were the gates left open later than usual for him?


            I think the fact that its been shown that both gates were open it was for Louis's return, and not a general practice. I have seen quotes that on meeting nights the right hand door, from the street, was usually open. The left one had the wicket in it for selling to the public...things like a peek at the murder site for a penny, which was done.

            My Jack was a fan of Spinoza,Stride and BS man seemed to be hanging around the club (or within 100 meters of it) for 75 minutes.

            Not sure where you get 75 minutes from, Liz is seen there at 12:35, and not before.

            With Stride's history of working for Jews, was the club's yard an agreed meeting place?

            Since Stride cleaned for the Jews in the preceding months, and that a meeting with Immigrant Jews had taken place, which would upon completion need cleaning, and since the high holidays started that same week, she may well have been "meeting someone there related to her work. Or, a social meeting.

            Just made a few observations on your post above.
            Michael Richards

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            • #36
              The Fly King - YouTube
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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              • #37
                The right hand gate,from the street,had the wicket in it.

                Simchas Torah had been on 28th September.
                The Festival of Lights was to start on 28th November.
                Pray tell which High Holidays do you refer to?

                The rest of your post does not deserve a reply,either.

                Rather amazed that you got this right on another thread.
                (PDF) Effects of hydrated lime and quicklime on the decay of buried human remains using pig cadavers as human body analogues
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • #38
                  There were no cigarette makers listed in 1881 or 1891 for 40 or 42 Berner Street.Can't find any in the immediate area actually.

                  Several of the witness/neighbors were still there in 1891.

                  Maurice Kosminski by then had the baker shop at 70,having taken over from Louis Friedman.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    I really don’t understand why numbers and measurements are needed? Just from viewing the cart above it seems perfectly obvious that Diemschutz could have done what he said that he did unless he was either the size of Yoda or that he was in some way stuck in one position and unable to move. We don’t know how long his reach was; we don’t know how agile he was; we don’t know how long the whip was? There really is no mystery here.
                    My whole point is that what seems perfectly obvious, stops being so when known dimensions are used to make calculations.
                    Your point about Diemschutz' reach and agility are valid; however, his statements don't give the impression he had to make any great effort to reach the body.
                    If it can't be reached easily, he can just jump off the cart to get a closer look, as he says he does anyway.
                    The point is though, that he claims to have touched the body and failed unsuccessfully to lift it, from his cart (and says so on multiple occasions). Therefore we have to hold him to that.

                    Remember also, that Louis says he had actually past the body, when this occurs. How far past? 1foot? 3ft? 6ft?
                    I did the calculations, based on zero feet.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      The overall width of the opening into the passageway and then the yard was around 10ft. The cart would have to have been dimensions that worked with that space..and he would likely have had to enter perpendicular to the opening, not just turn in sharply. Which would mean positioning himself across that entire road. Anyone in the immediate area would see and/or hear that happening.

                      4 witnesses said they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40-12:45, Blackwell said the cut time could be as early as 12:46 to 12:56, Fanny is at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am, she didn't see Louis arriving. So, he arrived before 12:50... when she was at her door full time, or after 1am, which makes 4 witnesses nearly 20 minutes off in their times, 3 of which came from inside the club, where clocks were.

                      If he arrived before 12:50, and Blackwell was correct about his estimates…(an estimated cut time as early as 12:30 is also on record), why didn't Louis and Eagle leave before 1am for help? Seems to me we may have had a woman bleeding to death while people figured out what to do.
                      10ft, as opposed to 9'2", obviously make Louis' required reach just that little further.
                      It is quite interesting that at 3'2" width, the cart is narrow enough to enter the yard when either left or right gate are closed. A bit of a squeeze, yes, but less so if the half-width is 5ft.

                      Fanny reports hearing a commotion at just after 1am, and Louis arrives on the scene at exactly 1am, so there are two clusters of times about 18 minutes apart.
                      How can this possibly be explained?
                      Fanny Mortimer is a fascinating character. She has an uncanny knack of seeing and hearing all that seems inconsequential to the murder - footsteps and a shiny bag, for example, and manages to miss Stride, BS man, pipeman, Israel Schwartz, and only hears, but does not see pony, cart & Diemschutz. Her position, relative to the murder location, almost exactly mirrors that of pipeman. Is there more to Fanny than the innocent observer of Berner St, she seems to be?
                      Discounting her as a credible witness (a big call, no doubt), leaves only the discoverer of the body claiming a 1am discovery time.

                      I need to get a bit clearer on PC Smith's timings, but at this stage it looks a bit odd that he would arrive on the scene not long after 1am, yet hear none of the screams of "police!" and "murder!" from Kozebrodsky and others. It's as though these occurred prior to 1am.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        Did Louis shelter from the rain earlier that night on his way home?
                        Yes - under the old blanket he had with him

                        Seriously though - interesting points.

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                        • #42
                          A few points on dimensions and whips.

                          The assumed seating position is nice and close to the pony.
                          In this location, a thoroughbred jockey's length whip would be adequate - no more than a few feet in total.

                          A longer whip could be assumed if it were also assumed that Diemschutz actually sits on top of the frame, with the aid of a cross-board.
                          He would then sit most-of-thigh-length further back - around 30cm - and thus require that much extra whip length.
                          However, this does not actually get the outstretched arm any closer to the body.
                          I estimate the cart deck to be 65cm from ground (2ft is 61cm), and the full cart height is 97cm.
                          That means we have to add ((97 + board_thickness) - 65) = ~34cm to total shoulder height.
                          Thus all we have done is "robbed Peter to pay Paul".

                          Sitting further back again, would have Diemschutz sitting over the axel.
                          This position is nonsensical, as it would mean there is no shift in the cart's centre of gravity when the driver sits down, and therefore the legs remain on the ground.
                          Presumably, Diemschutz didn't have the legs scraping along cobblestone, all the way to and from the market.

                          A third option would be to swing the cart around 180, relative to pony, and have the driver sitting close to the rear.
                          This would obviously require a much longer whip, and it also means wasting quite a lot of deck space.
                          While this might at first seem like a solution to the reaching problem, we still have to be careful.
                          The whip photo posted by Dr Strange is 143cm.
                          Compare this to a cart length of 226cm.
                          The question we would need to answer is; when considering the lengths of cart, whip, forearm, and distance of pony's arse from cart, would the whip actually be long enough for its intended purpose?
                          It would be ironic if this seating arrangement and whip length, turned out to be long enough to reach the body, but not the pony!

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                          • #43
                            Attached is the 'photo Josh posted.
                            Haven't bothered doing all the measurements.The body is the same as "ours". In fact the internal part of the body is very similar in size to a single bed.
                            Surmise the wheels are 20".
                            Vehicles are about weight distribution and driver comfort and safety.The upward fulcrum is handy in this case.
                            Louis was going to a bit of trouble by hiring out a cart and horse to travel ~ 20 miles and spend around 10 hours selling jewelry.
                            Look at the way he dresses.He is earning good money.He has the right product and knows where his market segment is.

                            Two Jews walk into a bar and ..... one of them buys it

                            The Jews behind 40 Berner Street were not poor.
                            They were helping out the newer arrivals.

                            Same thing with the soup kitchen at 6 Fashion Street.
                            The committee behind that endeavour is on the Internet. Only remember Mrs Frankenstein.

                            The idea of a thoroughbred whip being used on a barrow pony is ludicrous. No offense meant.

                            Best of luck.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by DJA; 01-18-2020, 04:37 AM.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • #44
                              Unless someone can provide evidence that the cart in that photo is actually a costermonger's barrow, I'm not going to comment.
                              To do so would be to accept having the goalposts moved.

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                              • #45
                                The stands have been replaced by shafts.

                                Apart from that it is the same model.

                                It has been modified to travel 20 miles instead of being pushed around close to the market.

                                Originally those carts were used to transport furniture cabinets around.

                                The market traders,costermongers and shops close to the markets,particularly the Spitalfields Market asked the Hiller brothers to manufacture them as barrows.
                                The Hillers rented them out on a weekly basis.
                                After 1991 when the last Hiller retired,another firm took over the hire business in 1993 and rebranded the carts Howard,Wheler Street,Spitalfields.You can see that on the bright green cart with red wheels.
                                Same carts.
                                Last edited by DJA; 01-18-2020, 08:47 AM.
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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