A Whip and a Prod

[Paddy Goose]

There is a book already accusing him along with two others

[Herlock Sholmes]

I really don’t understand why numbers and measurements are needed? Just from viewing the cart above it seems perfectly obvious that Diemschutz could have done what he said that he did unless he was either the size of Yoda or that he was in some way stuck in one position and unable to move. We don’t know how long his reach was; we don’t know how agile he was; we don’t know how long the whip was? There really is no mystery here.

[DJA]

"Louis Diemschutz, along with Isaac Kozebrodsky, was arrested in March 1889 during a disturbance at the International Working Men's Club and charged with assaulting a police officer. Diemschutz was sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour as well as paying £40 and producing two sureties of £20 each, to be forfeited if he failed to be of good behaviour for twelve months"

1. The Times, 9th, 26th April 1889
2. East London Advertiser, 27th April 1889

Whatever the truth is, I think they were trying to hide something, Sir R. Andersons words just come to mind.



The Baron

Truth of the matter is that in March 1889 the club was attacked by a mob after a demonstration in support of the unemployed.
The police were seen as part of the mob.

[drstrange169]

>> I took the dimensions from the webpage with the antique barrow for sale. That is, the photo source.<<

So we have, on the one hand, someone in 2020 quickly looking on the internet and misreading what was written on the site and a contemporary Victorian advertisement from the makers of the cart. Which one should we believe do you think?

(f.y.i. the dimensions quoted on the internet site were including the railings on top of the cart, the original does not.)





>>2ft high would mean driver sits little more than a foot off the ground. I don't think so.<<

If the cart tray is 2 foot high off the ground, how does the driver sit 1 foot below it? Are you claiming they sat on the axle?



>> No parking ever occurs!<<

You'd have us believe Diemshitz's pony is still walking around!?!

Of course it parked. The exact sequence of events has already been explained to you on the other thread, there is no need to keep repeating here.



>> As for Baxter, the jury, and just about everyone else "understanding this", well, how could you possibly know that?<<

Again, Baxter's quote has already been given to you on the other thread, no need to keep repeating it.



>>That's at least 2ft longer than required for a costermonger's barrow.<<

Once more, you'd have us believe your, 2020, personal opinions over the photographs and drawings from contemporary Victorians the likes of Mayhew, that's not how research works.

[drstrange169]

>>Truth of the matter is that in March 1889 the club was attacked by a mob after a demonstration in support of the unemployed.
The police were seen as part of the mob.<<

I'm reminded of the Punch cartoon ...



Caption - Ruffian Policeman about to perpetrate a brutal and dastardly assault on the people.

[Ven]

LOL, we've all been duped!!

That image of the Green carriage is actually a hand cart!!
The user lifted the cart using the two handles on the right hand side.
NO horse cart would have those legs that are on the right hand side.
Joshua Rogan's image (Post #6), which shows a very similar type of carriage would better suit what Diemschutz may have used...and how he was positioned...you sit above the wheels in a two wheeled carriage.

Ven

[drstrange169]

Hello Ven,

You are right, the "horse" drawn ones were exactly the same sans the two legs.



Although, personally I suspect Diemshitz drove this one.

[Ven]

lol . the crocodile!!... four wheeled but still...!!!

[Ven]

...or is it an alligator?

[Ven]

your first pic though is similar with the "deeper" end of the carriage at the rear and the suspension belts going to the forward

[Ven]

Like Josh R's post #6

[Michael W Richards]

Cart and Barrow....

[Ven]

regardless of design, the driver sits above the wheels/axle

[Ven]

..when it's a two wheeled buggy,carriage

[Michael W Richards]

The overall width of the opening into the passageway and then the yard was around 10ft. The cart would have to have been dimensions that worked with that space..and he would likely have had to enter perpendicular to the opening, not just turn in sharply. Which would mean positioning himself across that entire road. Anyone in the immediate area would see and/or hear that happening.

4 witnesses said they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40-12:45, Blackwell said the cut time could be as early as 12:46 to 12:56, Fanny is at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am, she didn't see Louis arriving. So, he arrived before 12:50... when she was at her door full time, or after 1am, which makes 4 witnesses nearly 20 minutes off in their times, 3 of which came from inside the club, where clocks were.

If he arrived before 12:50, and Blackwell was correct about his estimates…(an estimated cut time as early as 12:30 is also on record), why didn't Louis and Eagle leave before 1am for help? Seems to me we may have had a woman bleeding to death while people figured out what to do.