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A Whip and a Prod

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  • #61
    Now look what you've done
    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • #62
      The Isaac Kozebrodsky article in The Daily News contains a number of errors.
      Wouldn't take much notice of it.Seriously.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #63
        This is not the Polish Jew you're looking for
        Attached Files

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        • #64
          Actually grew up with Jewish refugees.One was my best friend.
          Was speaking Yiddish before I could read or write.
          Two roomed with us.Lovely people.
          Yugoslavian lady had a real horror story regarding her escape.Wolves,snow,etc.Worked in Oz for MacRobertson's.Usually gave us a large box of chocolates on Fridays.
          Firm moved from Fitzroy to Ringwood.Meant she moved closer to work.
          Mr Distelman was groovy.Bought a motorbike and sidecar.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #65
            Originally posted by DJA View Post
            The Isaac Kozebrodsky article in The Daily News contains a number of errors.
            Wouldn't take much notice of it.Seriously.
            The Issac Kozebroski interview took place an hour after the discovery of the body, as did Gillen, and Heschbergs and Spooners. All 4 said that they were by the body around 12:45. The people who said that Louis arrived after 1 were directly associated with the club and in Laves case, a passageway resident... and Mrs D, Louis, and Morris Eagles case, all were paid by the club. Unfortunately for Louis, Fanny Mortimer was at her door from 12:50 until 1am and she saw or heard nothing of Louis arrival, despite his adamant claim that he arrived "precisely" at 1. Obviously he was wrong, or he lied. Fanny never sees or hears him arrive...she hears a cart and horse after 1. Louis doesn't mention that someone sent Issac K out for help just after the discovery, no-one else but Issac actually mentions that...why? Because that would mean Louis was actually there before he said he was. Eagle says "he couldn't be sure" if a body was there when he went into the passageway at 12:40, though he would have had to almost step over it, and he didn't see Lave apparently, though both of them said they were there at exactly the same time. If Issac left when he said he did, then he wasn't the Issac[s] that went with Louis...so where was he when the interviews took place? Israel says he saw BSM and Liz, yet there is absolutely no mention of him anywhere in Inquest data, no BSM or any altercation he alleges at 12:45 outside the gates.

            See any trends there? ALL the men and one woman directly employed by the club saw no-one and noticed nothing, and the steward was either incorrect or lied about when he arrived. 5 independent witnesses, without income ties to the club, saw something very different, and at very different times to the people most closely tied to the club. Add to that the theatrically dressed Israel, whose fascinating tale is in no way entered into evidence in any shape or fashion at the Inquest, a hearing designed to assess the cause of death. Being mentioned in a later Police Gazette means nothing when his actual value to the investigation is confirmed negated by his story being left out of the Inquest.

            There are many who seem to have trouble assessing who is telling the truth in these cases, when such contradictory statements like Carrie Maxwells and Israel Schwartz's permeate the stories. But its not that hard to sort out when you ask this simple question...Does this witness have anything to hide, gain or protect by how their story is perceived?

            In all of the "arrival after 1 accounts" they had income to protect, as well as the clubs continued operation. I can see no reason for Fanny, Edward, Issac, Heshberg or Gillen to have any concerns about telling exactly what they saw and when they saw it.
            Michael Richards

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            • #66
              Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

              What is the best current theory for explaining how Diemschutz manages to inform Kozebrodsky of the unknown object in the yard, ~20 minutes before he actually finds it?
              The 3 other witnesses that say they also were there at the same time Issac says he was, 12:40-12:45...and the one witness who didn't see or hear Louis arrive at 1 like he said he did..."precisely". All after 1 arrival accounts have bias.

              Michael Richards

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                The 3 other witnesses that say they also were there at the same time Issac says he was, 12:40-12:45...and the one witness who didn't see or hear Louis arrive at 1 like he said he did..."precisely". All after 1 arrival accounts have bias. None of the 12:40-12:45 witnesses do.
                There is no Inquest data that suggests anyone saw Liz after 12:35, there is the account of James Brown...gettin in the hot tub...whose sighting is almost certainly not Liz, but does correspond directly to the time given by Israel. Who had no say in this matter officially.

                No Israel. No BSM, or Pipeman. 4 witnesses by the body at 12:45, 1 who did not see Louis arrive when he said he did, and club biased witnesses who lied or were mistaken about the times, who couldn't be sure if a body impeded the same path they say they took at 12:40, who didn't see other witnesses who by their accounts were there at the same time, and 3 witnesses on the club payroll that stood to lose income if any authority believed the club had something to do with this, or mishandled the response when she was found.

                I think for myself the story is clear...Liz was out of sight at 12:35..in the passageway, she is cut sometime around 12:40, Louis arrives, the rest of the people are summoned and gather near 12:45, Issac is sent out for help, and no-one else does diddly squat until after 1am. They just let Liz bleed out while planning what to say to the police. Since we have a guess about the earliest cut time ranging from 12:30 until sometime between 12:46 and 12:56, none of what I just posted is problematic from a propositional point of view.
                Michael Richards

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                • #68
                  Isaac Kozebrodsky



                  Witness (though not called to Elizabeth Stride's inquest).
                  Also referred to as 'Isaac M Kozebrodski' and 'Isaacs'.
                  A young Pole (born in Warsaw) who spoke english imperfectly, he was called by Louis Diemschutz into Dutfield's Yard to view the body of Elizabeth Stride. In a press interview, Kozebrodsky stated:
                  "I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".[

                  There is that much wrong with that,it is not funny.

                  No doubt Diemschutz was slightly out with "exactly 1 am",however not by 20 minutes.
                  After all,he had a rather long day.

                  The bakers was at 70 Berner Street,15 doors up.

                  Damn sure no press interview was conducted at 1.40 am as alleged by Michael.
                  Last edited by DJA; 01-18-2020, 09:28 PM.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #69
                    Israel Schwartz

                    Israel Schwartz.
                    Witness who saw a woman being attacked in the gateway of Dutfield's Yard in Berner Street at about 12.45 a.m. on the morning of 30 September 1888, about 15 minutes before the body of Elizabeth Stride was discovered there.

                    She was being dragged out/away from the yard.
                    Most likely by BS man,who then left.
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                    • #70
                      • Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots. Both addresses are false.
                      • Printed handbill and according to a press report- a printed card for 'Frank Carter,305,Bethnal Green Road.


                      12:55 AM: Sergeant Byfield instructs PC Hutt to see if any prisoners were fit to be released. Kate was found to be sober. She gives her name as Mary Ann Kelly, and her address as 6 Fashion Street. Kate is released.


                      The superintendent of the casual ward said that Kate was well known there, but that this was the first time she had been there for a long time. Eddowes explained that she had been hopping in the country but "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." The superintendent warned her to be careful he didn't murder her. "Oh, no fear of that." she replied. (There is no corroborative evidence for this story and it should be treated with a great deal of scepticism.)

                      Royal Engineers - Wikipedia


                      OK,now let us link that all up.

                      Eddowes returns to earn a reward.
                      Her next door neighbor and friend of over 20 years has been murdered.

                      She recruits a sapper by the name of Frank Carter as muscle (BS man) to accompany her and Stride to Berner Street.

                      Instead she is locked up.
                      Mary Ann Kelly was the real name of victim 5.
                      6 Fashion Street was behind 30/31/32 Flower and Dean to where Stride had escaped Kidney at 38 Dorset Street.You can walk straight into the soup kitchen as the Goad map shows.

                      Anyone else work out why the grapes were important?
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by DJA; 01-18-2020, 10:37 PM.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • #71
                        The cart that Josh originally posted.
                        Attached Files
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          The cart that Josh originally posted.
                          There appears to be some shared parts; wooden and metal struts, same number of wheel spokes.
                          Otherwise it is quite different:
                          • legs removed (so cannot be used as human powered barrow - required for tight positioning at the market)
                          • wooden rails added, with semi-permanent extensions for donkey attachment
                          • appears to operate at 180 orientation vs barrow (reversed)
                          • different seating arrangement - better visibility and comfort, trading-off deck space

                          This larger photo has me wondering; where is the whip?

                          Could it be that a cart of this design is not intended to be used with a whip?
                          That is, are the reins supposed to function as the whip?

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                          • #73
                            >>The point is though, that he claims to have touched the body and failed unsuccessfully to lift it, from his cart (and says so on multiple occasions). Therefore we have to hold him to that. Remember also, that Louis says he had actually past the body, when this occurs. How far past? 1foot? 3ft? 6ft?<<

                            Yet again, you HAVE to read what was actually written.

                            Diemshitz says no such thing. What he is reported as saying, is,

                            "I came into the gate, my pony shied to the left. That caused me to turn my head down to the ground on my right to see what it was that had made him shy.

                            Could you see anything?-I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement. I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. There was nothing white about it. I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up ..."


                            Diemshitz describes the whip incident as happening when the enters the gate. He specifically says he looks down NOT back and that the object is on his right NOT behind him.

                            He then tells the jury he gets down and strikes a match and rushes inside the club. He doesn't make it clear when he gets down or where his pony and barrow are when he gets down, so he was asked,

                            "What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

                            So we know he parked his cart by the backdoor. We also know WHEN he parked it by the backdoor,

                            "The barrow was past the body when I got down to see what it was."

                            "By the Jury-It would have been quite possible for a man to have escaped from the yard while I was driving up to the club door ..."

                            According to Diemshitz's reported testimony, he was level with Mrs Strides body when he used his whip and he was past the body when he got down. Two incidents are separate.

                            Any other interpretation is invention and not supported by what was actually written.
                            Last edited by drstrange169; 01-19-2020, 02:06 AM.
                            dustymiller
                            aka drstrange

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              There is no Inquest data that suggests anyone saw Liz after 12:35, there is the account of James Brown...gettin in the hot tub...whose sighting is almost certainly not Liz, but does correspond directly to the time given by Israel. Who had no say in this matter officially.

                              No Israel. No BSM, or Pipeman. 4 witnesses by the body at 12:45, 1 who did not see Louis arrive when he said he did, and club biased witnesses who lied or were mistaken about the times, who couldn't be sure if a body impeded the same path they say they took at 12:40, who didn't see other witnesses who by their accounts were there at the same time, and 3 witnesses on the club payroll that stood to lose income if any authority believed the club had something to do with this, or mishandled the response when she was found.

                              I think for myself the story is clear...Liz was out of sight at 12:35..in the passageway, she is cut sometime around 12:40, Louis arrives, the rest of the people are summoned and gather near 12:45, Issac is sent out for help, and no-one else does diddly squat until after 1am. They just let Liz bleed out while planning what to say to the police. Since we have a guess about the earliest cut time ranging from 12:30 until sometime between 12:46 and 12:56, none of what I just posted is problematic from a propositional point of view.
                              How do you account for Israel Schwartz apparently vanishing from history, after his interpreted interview by Abberline?
                              Was he given a new identity, and relocated away from Whitechapel?
                              If his evidence was so sensitive and/or dangerous to his own safety, surely we are obliged to take it on board (without forgetting the fallibility of eyewitness testimony)?

                              If the club is involved in the murder, why would they work out what they are going to say to the police, after the murder occurs?
                              Surely they are intelligent people who can plan all this out in advance?
                              If, on the other hand, the club is innocent, the right way to proceed is to just go for help immediately, as they say they did.
                              Is the more likely scenario that, acting without distractions and with visual access to a clock, both Diemschutz and Mrs Mortimer get the time more or less correct, but in the organisational chaos of the club, Kozebrodsky and others screw up the agreed upon time?
                              Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 01-19-2020, 02:24 AM.

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                              • #75


                                >>The assumed seating position is nice and close to the pony.<<

                                Diemshitz specifically says he sat "in his barrow",

                                "I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it."

                                So, in fact, the "assumed seating position" is further away from his pony.



                                >> In this location, a thoroughbred jockey's length whip would be adequate - no more than a few feet in total.<<

                                A jockey's "whip" is called a crop and even in the position you describe it would not reach the pony. If you do some research, you'll find that the type of whip I've already shown you was the type used. Why? Because the pony, donkey or horse on a small carriage is controlled by touching the shoulders of the animal, not the hind quarters. The whip is used as a turning aid to increase manoeuvrability.

                                Last edited by drstrange169; 01-19-2020, 02:43 AM.
                                dustymiller
                                aka drstrange

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