Election

[Tab]

Caz.
If you look back you will see I have no problem with Transgender themselves, by that I mean no problem associating with them.
Some can be quite funny to talk with, they have a vocabulary that sets them apart from others - a conversation can be quite amusing.

Can't tell if this paragraph is filled with condescension or if this is you being genuine. Let me look at the context of the rest of this post, as well as the other things you have said in this thread......... Ah yes, condescension.

The problem begins when they want to change rules or laws that effect others, to benefit only them.

This is a weird stance. Can you imagine the state the western world would be in if minorities didn't advocate for change. Civil rights, gender equality, gay rights followed by LGBTQIA+ rights. I take it you are still upset with black people joining you in the public toilets? I guess you could actually be black, in which case, are you upset that you can now use the regular toilets?

An example is their desire to dismiss 'the fact of only two sexes' being taught in schools, and books that teach the same factual information being removed from school libraries.

Here we are again, purposefully confusing gender with biological sex. Gender being a social construct. Nothing wrong with teaching about gender in school. If there are books that are out of date because our knowledge of things has changed, or because social norms have changed, or because we no longer do any numbers of things because society has moved forward, then I see no reason to teach from them in school. Keep them for historical purposes, in the back, under the label "When we were stupid".

As plenty of women have also complained about transgender men being assigned to women's toilets & change rooms, then it must be a problem for regular females.
The reasoning put forward was the govt. don't want to endanger Transgender men by putting them in men's washrooms for fear of physical harm. So, they put them in women's washrooms where biological females are placed at risk by men posing as women, where the female is open to risk of being raped if alone, or leered at while changing.
The complaint originated with women, so don't tell me it is not a valid complaint.

As Caz has already pointed out, anyone that wants to do harm to people of any gender, will absolutely do so, regardless of what a sign says on the toilet door. No one is going through years of consultation, therapy and evaluation. Years of hormone treatment and multiple surgeries, just so they can wander in to the woman's bathroom to assault someone.

[The Baron]

An interesting side note... the name of the prophet Muhammad appears in the Quran only 4 times.

114 chapters of the Quran, and the most important man in the Islamic faith; the 40 year old man who founded Islam in 610 AD, is mentioned only 4 times.

I am not a Muslim but I believe it's rather important to learn and educate myself in such matters, so that I can form a more moderate, respectful and informed understanding of how the world really works.

From Study.com:

Jesus is mentioned 108 times in the Quran directly or in the third-person, and at least 187 times indirectly. This makes him the most mentioned person in the Quran. He is referred to by name as Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary), and he is described as the Messiah (al-Masih in Arabic). While the Quran, like the Holy Bible, states that Mary gave birth to Jesus as a virgin and that Jesus performed many miracles, it differs from Christian doctrine in that it denies that he was the Son of God and states that he did not die on the cross, because, according to the Quran, that "…would have meant the triumph of his executioners."



The Baron

[caz]

I apologize for butting in, but this is where I need to stop you. It's not Tab who is picking out the few good bits for a sunnier outlook, it's you picking out the few bad bits because it fits your narrative. By the very same statistics that Islamophobes like to quote, we know that the vast majority of Muslims are regular good guys. The "good bits" are not in minority. Like, at all. Indeed, how could any society possibly function if most of the people are bad apples?

Ah, but Karl, the glass-half-empty crowd here get awfully grumpy when they are told by the glass-half-full lot, like us, that their fear and anger are misplaced and needless. If they couldn't find anything in the worst dung heaps of the media to make them foam at the mouth or scared witless - literally - it would be like having their last avenue of pleasure closed off. I wish I could feel more compassion for the poor devils, but most of it is reserved for the truly deserving, like those who have no choice but to be miserable because their glass is never more than a quarter full.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Baron]

Ah, but Karl, the glass-half-empty crowd here get awfully grumpy when they are told by the glass-half-full lot, like us, that their fear and anger are misplaced and needless. If they couldn't find anything in the worst dung heaps of the media to make them foam at the mouth or scared witless - literally - it would be like having their last avenue of pleasure closed off. I wish I could feel more compassion for the poor devils, but most of it is reserved for the truly deserving, like those who have no choice but to be miserable because their glass is never more than a quarter full.

Love,

Caz
X

Did I mention how much I like your writing style Caz?!



The Baron

[Karl]

Ah, but Karl, the glass-half-empty crowd here get awfully grumpy when they are told by the glass-half-full lot, like us, that their fear and anger are misplaced and needless. If they couldn't find anything in the worst dung heaps of the media to make them foam at the mouth or scared witless - literally - it would be like having their last avenue of pleasure closed off. I wish I could feel more compassion for the poor devils, but most of it is reserved for the truly deserving, like those who have no choice but to be miserable because their glass is never more than a quarter full.

Love,

Caz
X

I'm not sure they are glass-half-empty sort of people, necessarily - they merely have, shall we say, an ethnic hang-up. I know a guy who has the most disgusting xenophobic personality online, really hateful and vitriolic, but you would absolutely not know that to meet him in person. In person, he is charming, generous, helpful, has a sunny disposition and is just an all-round great guy. Of course, we know that our political ideologies are completely at odds with each other, so we simply never bring them up. But his in-person personality, and his social media personality, they really are like Jekyll and Hyde.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a quick one before I go back and read through the last few pages. I thought we had put this to bed with my last reply to this statement of yours. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists. One more example to prove the point, Non-denominational Muslims. A significant portion of the Muslim community identify as Non-denominational, and many of those do not adhere strictly to fundamentalist interpretations of the Quran.

I also think your interpretation of fundamentalism is wrong. It is closer to a strict belief in the literal interpretation of religious texts. For example Buddhist Fundamentalism obviously has no god involved.

What sort of evidence will you accept that not all Muslims are fundamentalists? That there is nuance and complexity in an individuals relationship with their own faith?

All the best,
'Sorry for the fact checking again' Tab

I just fact-checked a few actual Muslims on line on the subject to see what they say:

Ashmede Asgarali - “Muslims are not allowed to disagree with Qur-aan.”

Mohammed Allan Naeem- “By definition, a Muslim cannot disagree with even a single letter of the Qur'aan.”

Furquan Ahmed - “Rejecting a single dot of Quran is sufficient enough a reason to turn a Muslim into a Kafir.”

Zahra Ayat - “..as a muslim, we should believe and have faith in all parts of holy Quran,

because the holy Quran is the last message of Allah for guiding humanity

we cant deny any parts of it,”

Syeda Shaista Juwairia (B. Sc Hons) from Maigadh University) - “There is no questionable part in Qur'an for muslims.“

Mohammed Yousuf - “A muslim must agree whatever the holy Quran says in its Ayats”

Zahraa Rizvee - “Yes, if someone doesn't, they are out of the fold of Islam.”

Abbas Alizada - “No Muslim can deny a single letter of the Quran and be a self respecting Muslim. To be a Muslim means to submit fully to your maker and His guidance.”

Francois Martini - “No. As you should know, surah 2, verse 2 says : This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah . No Doubt.”


Or, let’s look on Islamweb.net shall we….maybe they know something about Islam?

Question -“ If a person believes in God and that Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) is His Prophet, but this person does not believe that some orders which are written in the Qur'an came from Allah, can he be considered Muslim?”

Answer - “All the Muslim Ummah has agreed that anyone who denies something that is mentioned in the Qur'an whether it is its commands or reports, or if he approves of something that is disapproved of in the Qur'an, or disapproves of what is approved of in the Qur'an after having knowledge of it, is a Kafir even if he denies only a letter of the commonly known alphabet of the Qur'an.
Allah knows best.“

….

Do some disagree? Of course they do but that it’s not the point. What effort is being made to educate those who follow the hardline jihadist route? None? Or it might be that those that tried are either no longer here or that they are in hiding, living under assumed names somewhere.

Now, naturally I accept that you and Karl know more about Islam than these actual Muslims but all that I can do is post what they said and, believe me, there are more. If there is no issue within this religion (and millions across the world believe that there is [including many former Muslims like Ibn Waraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali who both live under a perpetual death threat for rejecting the religion of peace]) then all that really needs to be done is a little bit of PR work as apparently it’s simply a matter of interpretation. It should be easy shouldn’t it. Perhaps politicians just forgot to ask Hammas to allow the Jewish people to live in peace without threatening to wipe them off the face of the earth. Errors like this are easily done of course.

So, I’m not going to persist in listening to your blatant condescension because I have no desire to discuss any subject with anyone so divorced from reality. Sadly we don’t live in the kind of Enid Blyton world that you two appear to see all around you. We shouldn’t be talking of left and right or sticking to party lines or to any kind of agenda. You both work under a kind of rule that believes that ordinary people shouldn’t be listened to. I posted about 5 or 6 mainstream polls on here before the election and when the UK PUBLIC were asked about what problems they wanted a new government to deal with, immigration was in the top 3 of all of them and came top in one poll. Always taking 40/50% of the votes. You both think that these people should be ignored because YOU think they are wrong.

But it’s ok. Your safe. Nothing will be done so there’s no need to worry.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not sure they are glass-half-empty sort of people, necessarily - they merely have, shall we say, an ethnic hang-up. I know a guy who has the most disgusting xenophobic personality online, really hateful and vitriolic, but you would absolutely not know that to meet him in person. In person, he is charming, generous, helpful, has a sunny disposition and is just an all-round great guy. Of course, we know that our political ideologies are completely at odds with each other, so we simply never bring them up. But his in-person personality, and his social media personality, they really are like Jekyll and Hyde.

And of course….you assume that you are correct and others are wrong.

[Karl]

Or, let’s look on Islamweb.net shall we….maybe they know something about Islam?

What a ridiculous test. If we took a similar question about Christianity to a Christian website, do you think you would get a different answer? In other words, by your own logic, we MUST conclude that all Christians MUST believe certain things, or they are not Christian, because... a Christian website said so

But just what is the point of that test, anyway? If someone believes in all of the Quran except one sura, does that mean they're not a Muslim? Even if they say they are? Because... you side with Muslims who disagree with him?

And even if, for the sake of argument, we agreed that Muslims HAVE to believe as you say... does that mean the people who do not so believe... cease to exist?
"No of course not, don't be silly. But they're not real Muslims." [SCOTSMAN ALERT]
Ok, so they're not "real" Muslims. But they nevertheless call themselves Muslim, they are registered as Muslim, and they are part of the Muslim demographic. So just what is your point?

And the elephant in your room, here... Why did a Muslim ask that question in the first place, if such beliefs are not held by Muslims?

What effort is being made to educate those who follow the hardline jihadist route?

Hold on - jihadist? What has that got to do with your ramble about believing 100% of the Quran?

And of course….you assume that you are correct and others are wrong.

With better evidence than polls and selected media representations, it must be said.

[Wickerman]

...What is it with you and your blind faith in polls? WHICH polls? Your claim has the same credibility as "every single person I have spoken to..." Here's a hint: if a poll asks, "do you think there is a problem with immigration?" then that's a LEADING question, and the poll most likely has an AGENDA. Where is the poll published? How big is the sample size? What is the sample? I should also like to add that "every single poll" has no source.

Prepare yourself for an education...

52% of the UK think the number of immigrants should be reduced.

33% say the present state of immigration is a Bad thing.
31% Say it is a Good thing.
36% think it is neither, or don't know.

37% - Asylum seeking should be made more difficult.
30% - accepting people from Afghanistan should be made more difficult.
36% - accepting low skilled people should be reduced.

Views on immigration/migration appear to be split by age & by education.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

[The Rookie Detective]

I just fact-checked a few actual Muslims on line on the subject to see what they say:

Ashmede Asgarali - “Muslims are not allowed to disagree with Qur-aan.”

Mohammed Allan Naeem- “By definition, a Muslim cannot disagree with even a single letter of the Qur'aan.”

Furquan Ahmed - “Rejecting a single dot of Quran is sufficient enough a reason to turn a Muslim into a Kafir.”

Zahra Ayat - “..as a muslim, we should believe and have faith in all parts of holy Quran,

because the holy Quran is the last message of Allah for guiding humanity

we cant deny any parts of it,”

Syeda Shaista Juwairia (B. Sc Hons) from Maigadh University) - “There is no questionable part in Qur'an for muslims.“

Mohammed Yousuf - “A muslim must agree whatever the holy Quran says in its Ayats”

Zahraa Rizvee - “Yes, if someone doesn't, they are out of the fold of Islam.”

Abbas Alizada - “No Muslim can deny a single letter of the Quran and be a self respecting Muslim. To be a Muslim means to submit fully to your maker and His guidance.”

Francois Martini - “No. As you should know, surah 2, verse 2 says : This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah . No Doubt.”


Or, let’s look on Islamweb.net shall we….maybe they know something about Islam?

Question -“ If a person believes in God and that Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) is His Prophet, but this person does not believe that some orders which are written in the Qur'an came from Allah, can he be considered Muslim?”

Answer - “All the Muslim Ummah has agreed that anyone who denies something that is mentioned in the Qur'an whether it is its commands or reports, or if he approves of something that is disapproved of in the Qur'an, or disapproves of what is approved of in the Qur'an after having knowledge of it, is a Kafir even if he denies only a letter of the commonly known alphabet of the Qur'an.
Allah knows best.“

….

Do some disagree? Of course they do but that it’s not the point. What effort is being made to educate those who follow the hardline jihadist route? None? Or it might be that those that tried are either no longer here or that they are in hiding, living under assumed names somewhere.

Now, naturally I accept that you and Karl know more about Islam than these actual Muslims but all that I can do is post what they said and, believe me, there are more. If there is no issue within this religion (and millions across the world believe that there is [including many former Muslims like Ibn Waraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali who both live under a perpetual death threat for rejecting the religion of peace]) then all that really needs to be done is a little bit of PR work as apparently it’s simply a matter of interpretation. It should be easy shouldn’t it. Perhaps politicians just forgot to ask Hammas to allow the Jewish people to live in peace without threatening to wipe them off the face of the earth. Errors like this are easily done of course.

So, I’m not going to persist in listening to your blatant condescension because I have no desire to discuss any subject with anyone so divorced from reality. Sadly we don’t live in the kind of Enid Blyton world that you two appear to see all around you. We shouldn’t be talking of left and right or sticking to party lines or to any kind of agenda. You both work under a kind of rule that believes that ordinary people shouldn’t be listened to. I posted about 5 or 6 mainstream polls on here before the election and when the UK PUBLIC were asked about what problems they wanted a new government to deal with, immigration was in the top 3 of all of them and came top in one poll. Always taking 40/50% of the votes. You both think that these people should be ignored because YOU think they are wrong.

But it’s ok. Your safe. Nothing will be done so there’s no need to worry.

That goes some way to highlight that the majority of "Muslims" are not literal Islamists; because many are unaware of the Quaran's literal teachings; ergo, the word of God.

The same can be said for the Majority of Christians who aren't really Christians at all, because they do not follow the literal teachings as set out in the Bible.

According to the Bible; if you don't believe in Jesus; you can't go to heaven, whether you have faith in God or not...which is pretty ridiculous if you have a deep faith in God.

So we have the 2 major religions of the world that live in their own reality that just so happens to clash.

That's the problem with trying to define the difference between Religion and Faith.

To have faith in God or some form of higher power is perhaps a human condition whereby we need to seek our own relevance in this life and are eager to feel that it all has some longer term meaning that goes beyond our own life span.

Whereas being religious, is to have a particular belief that by proxy opposes other religions. Religion is divisive, restricting and designed to control the masses through fear and conformity, so that those in power have the ability to remain in power.

Religion and Faith are NOT the same thing because with having a personal faith in God, it empowers us to be individuals and to give us the freedom to be ourselves and have the feeling we have a higher purpose. Religion on the other hand suppresses that natural human need and turns it into something that we can't control and feel compelled to follow.

Religion is based on fear, power, conformity, and control

Faith is based on the joy of celebrating life through the belief there's a higher power that protects us through time.

Only when we can differentiate between being religious and having faith, can we truly progress in a positive way.


Ultimately, Christians and Muslims are on opposite sides of the same coin and together those 2 religions have caused more death and destruction than we could ever possibly comprehend.

Have a deep and beautiful belief and faith in your own God and live in peace with yourself and others. But once you start to label yourself into a category of being a Christian or a Muslim etc...and feel compelled to follow a book that serves only to control and suppress you and turn you into a sheep... then you lose the meaning of what it truly means to have faith in God.


RD

[Karl]

Prepare yourself for an education...

52% of the UK think the number of immigrants should be reduced.

33% say the present state of immigration is a Bad thing.
31% Say it is a Good thing.
36% think it is neither, or don't know.

37% - Asylum seeking should be made more difficult.
30% - accepting people from Afghanistan should be made more difficult.
36% - accepting low skilled people should be reduced.

Views on immigration/migration appear to be split by age & by education.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what an ad populum fallacy looks like.

[Wickerman]

What doesn't help is if we tarnish all Muslims as fundamentalists; because there are vastly and overwhelmingly more moderate Muslims than there are Muslim militant extremists

The majority of Muslims are killed by other Muslims because there are so many variations of Islam that oppose each other and so to tarnish everyone with the same brush is simply a means for the uneducated West to try and deal with and process the relative unknown.

Just to flesh this point out - Islam is at war with itself.
The Islamic world is mostly divided into two sects - the Sunni and the Shia, and they hate each other.
Sunni, follow the teachings of Mohammed, whereas the Shia believe Allah is devine.

Saudi Arabia is Sunni, whereas Iran is Shia.
Most of the trouble in the west is instigated by Iran who's govt. seized power in Iran and are a terrorist organization providing finances & weaponry to Hesbullah & Hammas - who occupy Gaza.

Sunni Muslims are more moderate in their beliefs than Shia Muslims.

It is the followers of Shia in Iran who's agenda is to turn the west into the next Caliphate, and are being helped by soft, weak leftist policies by European & American governments.

https://www.cfr.org/article/sunni-shia-divide

[Tab]

What a ridiculous test. If we took a similar question about Christianity to a Christian website, do you think you would get a different answer? In other words, by your own logic, we MUST conclude that all Christians MUST believe certain things, or they are not Christian, because... a Christian website said so

But just what is the point of that test, anyway? If someone believes in all of the Quran except one sura, does that mean they're not a Muslim? Even if they say they are? Because... you side with Muslims who disagree with him?

And even if, for the sake of argument, we agreed that Muslims HAVE to believe as you say... does that mean the people who do not so believe... cease to exist?
"No of course not, don't be silly. But they're not real Muslims." [SCOTSMAN ALERT]
Ok, so they're not "real" Muslims. But they nevertheless call themselves Muslim, they are registered as Muslim, and they are part of the Muslim demographic. So just what is your point?

And the elephant in your room, here... Why did a Muslim ask that question in the first place, if such beliefs are not held by Muslims?



Hold on - jihadist? What has that got to do with your ramble about believing 100% of the Quran?



With better evidence than polls and selected media representations, it must be said.

The logic is absolutely baffling isn't it.

[Wickerman]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what an ad populum fallacy looks like.

Reality hurts I guess, at least you know you can drop the 'minority' accusation - you've learned that at least.

[caz]

Wow. I'm sorry caz but there is not much correct in that statement.

Okay, so let's look at it again:

'Geddy bursts into tears at the very idea that anyone would accuse him of Islamophobia, so he evidently sees it as a distinctly unpleasant trait in other people. Perhaps you could soothe his fevered brow by reassuring him that anyone displaying genuine signs of this phobia will have issues 'upstairs'.

I apologise for getting it all wrong, Geddy, and will try again:

Geddy wouldn't literally burst into tears if someone were to accuse him of being Islamophobic [which is what the discussion was about at the time, but okay, let's add 'or xenophobic or racist']; he just wouldn't like it because he insists he is not.

I too would dislike being accused of something I'm not, if I have given no indication of it. If Geddy wants to make observations about Whitechapel, London, Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Liverpool, Cardiff or Durham - or indeed about being the only white face on the street and some of the signs being in an unfamiliar foreign language - then he can do so in safety, without fear of being called racist, xenophobic or Islamophobic, as long as none of those observations are in any way racist, xenophobic or Islamophobic in nature.

As someone who has qualifications in psychology and mental health issues I can assure you your last comment about 'that anyone displaying genuine signs of this phobia will have issues 'upstairs'' is rather insulting to say the least and shows how completely out of touch you are. Phobias by their definition are fears, that does not mean a person with a fear has 'upstairs' issues. I really thought you were better than that, obviously not.

In case I was too subtle - or sarcastic - for you, Geddy, I was responding to Jon, who had previously expressed an insulting and out of touch belief that trans women have issues 'upstairs'. I was suggesting that if Jon thinks he has a handle on 'upstairs' issues in general, he might like to consider what the problem is with anyone who - unlike yourself - is riddled with Islamophobia. Would you like to take a stab at it? If that word isn't to your taste, even though it doesn't apply to yourself, you could call it something else, such as: anti-Muslimism, intolerance against Muslims, anti-Muslim prejudice, anti-Muslim bigotry, hatred of Muslims, anti-Islamism, Muslimophobia, demonisation of Islam... take your pick.

I wouldn't personally describe a trans woman, or an anti-Muslim bigot, as mentally ill. One is struggling with the fears of others; the other is struggling with their own. Most of us have had a phobia of one sort or another. Mine used to be wasps, but I think I'm over it now. At least, I don't expect them to take over the world yet.

But seriously, you don't need to worry if you are not trans or an anti-Muslim bigot yourself. If people who really are bigots get stick for 'coming out' and speaking their mind - or even have the state of their mind questioned - why is it any skin off your nose, if you are nothing like them and don't want to be associated with them?