Election

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Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

In all seriousness though you make some good points Sherlock that warrant discussion. Apologies for the length. I really hope people here engage with this reply, these are important topics that deserve attention. I'll lay off the snark... probably.

Good points RD but I disagree on some of it. Why do we have a moral obligation to look after people who just feel that our country is a better financial option than their own? I think that our first obligation is to our own population. We have people living on the streets; we have old people choosing between food or heat; we have people working who still have to go to food banks to survive; we have an NHS that’s on its knees; we have housing shortages. Shipping in droves of people from other countries cannot be a remotely good idea (even if a few of them might be nurses). We are far too soft in my opinion.

Whole heatedly agree that we are a country on our knees at the moment. Pick any public service out of a hat and it has been reduced to bones on life support. However, I don't see us as soft. Ignoring the dismissive "even if a few of them might be nurses" jab, I believe that net migration is a 'positive' on the whole, but could absolutely be improved upon.

I am going to assume you are talking about legal immigration and the figures associated with that as you mention shipping people in. Illegal immigration, small boats etc..., is a significantly smaller percentage of people arriving here, and a different situation to deal with. Happy to discuss this later though.

I believe the reported spike in immigration (which could also be called scare mongering) over the last 4/5 years is what has people up in arms, and what has been seized upon as the evil that is the cause of all our ills. Everyone quoting increases in the millions each year. It should be noted though that net migration is actually much lower. However, the vast majority of this increase is down to the loss of free movement since Brexit. If were still in the EU and there wasn't a war going on in Ukraine, the numbers would be on average the same as pre-pandemic, with some sources stating they might actually be lower. Just over two thirds of the 2023 immigration numbers are down student visas (increase due to Brexit), and humanitarian visas. The other third-ish is skilled work visas.

So lets look at the first two thirds first. Student visas for 2023 are around 40% of the total number. These people are paying to be here in education, contributing the to local economy in shandies alone, working and paying taxes like the rest of us. The down side is that not many actually stick around after education to live and work. Humanitarian visas, Ukraine, Hong Kong etc... count for around 20%. Personally I have no problem with these at all. You ask why we have a moral obligation to look after people just looking for a better financial option, but I don't agree with the "better financial option" premise of that question regarding legal immigration. I would say we absolutely have a general moral obligation though, and I would say it is one of the things that make us a great nation, and makes me EXTREMELY proud to be British. Not everything we have done is relegated to past, as an example I believe we have a definite obligation to the people of Hong Kong.

The last third is work visas, which as I have noted before, even though you suggest otherwise, I don't believe we could actually function in a lot of vital areas without foreign workers. British people just aren't willing to do the jobs the immigrant population perform. Even if the pay and conditions were what they should be and everything was funded properly, I still don't think it would happen. Could this system for work visas be improved, absolutely. They have just stopped the allowance for dependent visas, except in certain circumstances, which I think may have been taken advantage of. However, these people perform vital roles in our society, contribute to the communities they are in, pay taxes and NI and are generally just a net positive to our society.

The additional stress legal immigration places our crumbling infrastructure is measured in a fraction of a percent, it will make no difference IMHO. The idea that just stopping immigration will help is flawed, and nothing but a distraction. I believe it would actually be detrimental and a slippery slope.

I have addressed the other argument regarding it destroying our culture, so no need to rehash it.

A quick note on the 'ghettos' comments. I would suggest this is just a case of 'awful humans' being 'awful humans', and nothing to do with them being immigrants. There are far more 'ghettos' stocked to the brim with wholly British people than foreign. A ghetto is a ghetto, and the fact they exist in any form is a failing of our public services, not our immigration policy.

Happy to hear thoughts/corrections/opinions on the above.

We are a country that sends money to India…a country that has a space programme!! Why isn’t a single politician saying “I tell you what chaps, why don’t you hold back on building rockets for an while and make some effort to stop your people starving? Or to allow people in more remote areas access to medical help?” But no, we send cash.

This is interesting, but again not the whole picture and it is framed once again to enrage. We haven't sent aid to India for a decade now. The money is sent via business, infrastructure, economic investment etc.... These are investments that are intended to yield returns and help with global targets on things climate. I'll say it again, the world is a much smaller place and we can't be thinking in such an isolationist manner.

You’re right to mention that ‘great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race.’ One person far more than any other was instrumental in ensuring that this didn’t happen. He did it in the face of many who wished to appease. Now, in some quarters that man is treated disgracefully. This is one of my reasons for pessimism RD. This culture of self-loathing. This ‘oh aren’t we such terrible people’ attitude. Statue smashing, book banning, free speech infringements, books edited. It genuinely saddens me RD to see the direction that the country appears to be taking. (Look at the horrific way that JK Rowling is being treated. An inspirational feminist who does more for charity on her own than some cities do and in some quarters you’d think that she was a child murderer. Just for giving an opinion and standing up for women’s rights!)

This is a little way from the immigration conversation, and more a "Woke culture has gone mad" conversation. Which I will leave alone.

We should all acknowledge and accept the bad things that our own countries have done (and still do in some cases). We don’t need to demonise people for having very human failings. And we definitely should not feel guilty about expressing pride in a nations achievements. It sometimes feels like we are encouraged to respect, study and celebrate the history of other countries and cultures (rightly) but it’s somehow shameful to do the same for our own.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with being proud of our nation despite our past mistakes. I am not sure what the reference to demonising people for having very human failings is. Some human failings should absolutely be demonised in my book, but I think I am not understanding what you are saying.

It’s just my own opinion but I really see no improvement on the horizon.

I am hopeful there will be.

All the best,
Tab

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Without immigration, I rather suspect 'our' NHS would not now exist to have 'huge strains' put on it, and we'd all be paying privately for our health care.

Be careful what you wish for, Geddy.

Love,

Caz
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Could not agree more

[Geddy2112]

Without immigration, I rather suspect 'our' NHS would not now exist to have 'huge strains' put on it, and we'd all be paying privately for our health care.

Be careful what you wish for, Geddy.

Love,

Caz
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Hi Caz, the NHS being in a worse case without immigration is as near the clichés in the others posts about racists and Brexit or maybe the great one to top the lot that not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims. All sweeping statements not founded in facts. We simply do not know what the NHS would be like.

However, I'm sorry to say you like the other poster who stated I was R and X are slightly missing the my point. I'm not against immigration, my wife is one (my partner prior was German) what I am against as such are immigrants not having the respect to follow their new home's rules and regulations and wanting things to change to suit them instead of them changing to suit their new hosts. Hence Multiculturalism is not working. It's an identity issue and Britain is fast losing theirs.

Like Herlock stated it's a struggle to mention immigration without being labelled a R or a X by those who simple wish to stir and totally miss the points you are making. (Not saying you personally are of course.)

[Geddy2112]

There are far more 'ghettos' stocked to the brim with wholly British people than foreign.

Do we have any figures for that?

[Tab]

Hi Caz, the NHS being in a worse case without immigration is as near the clichés in the others posts about racists and Brexit or maybe the great one to top the lot that not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims. All sweeping statements not founded in facts. We simply do not know what the NHS would be like.

Not directed at me I know, but we can be fairly certain by just looking at the stats. Looking at the care sector, which I know a little more about, about 20% are foreign workers, with tens of thousands of vacancies still needing to be filled. With people just living longer, the aging population requiring care is growing rapidly. The average wage in the social care sector is less than working in Tesco.

"Doing gruelling work with little pay in a challenging environment makes adult social care an unattractive career for many Britons, said Simon Bottery, a senior fellow of social care at The King's Fund health charity. Unless we do something about the underlying problem with the underfunding of the system, which in turn leads to too low pay, then we're not going to fix the problem"

Like Herlock stated it's a struggle to mention immigration without being labelled a R or a X by those who simple wish to stir and totally miss the points you are making. (Not saying you personally are of course.)

I guess it depends how you approach this "mentioning". I am in no way wishing to 'stir'. I prefer to look at facts and stats over anecdotal experience, that's all. I may have gotten a little snarky in some of my replies out of frustration, but I stand by what I have said.

All the best,
Tab

[Geddy2112]

Not directed at me I know, but we can be fairly certain by just looking at the stats. Looking at the care sector, which I know a little more about, about 20% are foreign workers, with tens of thousands of vacancies still needing to be filled.

Just to play devil's advocate here but without ever growing numbers of immigrants would we need to fill those vacancies? Surely the number of people increasing on these shores will undoubtedly increase the strain on the NHS maybe more than it helps fills the positions. Are they directly proportional?
I guess it's like saying ban smoking to stop the strain on the NHS but does the tax smoking brings in out weigh the stain or vice versa?

I guess it depends how you approach this "mentioning". I am in no way wishing to 'stir'. I prefer to look at facts and stats over anecdotal experience, that's all. I may have gotten a little snarky in some of my replies out of frustration, but I stand by what I have said.

All the best,
Tab

It does, and my intention was not to be R n X. So I apologise if to you I came across that way it was not my intention as I've tried to explain.

All the best to you too!

[Tab]

Do we have any figures for that?

There are no stats that specifically detail majority British 'rough' areas, but it doesn't take much to find them. Severely deprived and poor areas of Britain are unfortunately plentiful. West Midlands areas like Blakenall, Goscote in Walsall. Places that have literally been left to rot by successive governments.

All the best,
Tab

[Geddy2112]

West Midlands areas like Blakenall, Goscote in Walsall. Places that have literally been left to rot by successive governments.

Blakenhall's residents are predominantly descendants of Indians who settled in the area following World War II, with 45.6% of the population claiming Indian ethnicity. The local Gurdwara occupies the site of a former Corona drinks factory, and has at times laid claim to be the largest Gurdwara in Europe. Blakenhall's religious makeup as of the 2021 census was 40.7% Sikh

Was probably not the best example to chose to prove 'There are far more 'ghettos' stocked to the brim with wholly British people than foreign.'

[Tab]

Blakenhall's residents are predominantly descendants of Indians who settled in the area following World War II, with 45.6% of the population claiming Indian ethnicity. The local Gurdwara occupies the site of a former Corona drinks factory, and has at times laid claim to be the largest Gurdwara in Europe. Blakenhall's religious makeup as of the 2021 census was 40.7% Sikh

Was probably not the best example to chose to prove 'There are far more 'ghettos' stocked to the brim with wholly British people than foreign.'

Nothing against Wikipedia per se, but I wouldn't be using it for this sort of thing.

From the Office for National Statistics - It doesn't matter if you are looking at Blakenhall Heath or the Blakenhall Ward which includes Goscote, the figures are roughly the same:



As you can see, predominately British. For what it is worth, also predominately White and Christian(from the religions available).

All the best,
Tab

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]
Just to play devil's advocate here but without ever growing numbers of immigrants would we need to fill those vacancies? Surely the number of people increasing on these shores will undoubtedly increase the strain on the NHS maybe more than it helps fills the positions. Are they directly proportional?
I guess it's like saying ban smoking to stop the strain on the NHS but does the tax smoking brings in out weigh the stain or vice versa?

The additional strain is a scratch on an issue the size of a blue whale IMO. We need a much bigger overall plan to address these issues than simply stopping outright the one thing that is currently keeping us afloat. Birth rates are dropping at a staggering rate, and is is not hyperbole to say it is extremely alarming for our economy. Schools are closing all over the country as they are not financially viable with the falling numbers of children coming through. An increasing number of pensioners and a smaller workforce to pay for those pensions is a ticking time bomb.

The world we have built relies on 'free' movement of people.

It does, and my intention was not to be R n X. So I apologise if to you I came across that way it was not my intention as I've tried to explain.

All the best to you too!

Appreciate it Geddy, I'll try and keep myself in check!

All the best,
Tab

[The Rookie Detective]

The hypocrisy of the UK is the reason why things appear to be in such a mucking fuddle.

Some moan that the foreigners are "coming over and taking our jobs" and yet without said "foreigners" the entire system would crumble; in part because the white middle classes don't want to lower themselves to work mundane jobs and in part because the white working classes are either too lazy or stubbom to do the jobs that foreigners would do.

This is all claptrap


Think of it as being at school...and being bullied in a school toilet by a group of bullies...but then rather than finding a subsequent time to confront and challenge them, you take that feeling of hopelessness and victimisation that you felt and instead choose to focus on attacking a random kid who arrives from another school overseas, and thus by proxy, adopting the behaviour of the original bullies.

Getting to the source of the problem is paramount.


When we consider the fact that geographically there is more land per square feet taken up by Golf Courses than there is allocated for social housing, then that should tell you all you need to know about what the system in the UK is really like.

When the day comes when at least half the golf course in the UK are commandeered and used for social housing to aid the scores of people who need shelter and a safe place to stay, then that's the day when we may actually get somewhere.

Squabbling over immigration is just a convenient side show that distracts from the real source of the problem at hand.


RD

[caz]

Blakenhall's residents are predominantly descendants of Indians who settled in the area following World War II, with 45.6% of the population claiming Indian ethnicity. The local Gurdwara occupies the site of a former Corona drinks factory, and has at times laid claim to be the largest Gurdwara in Europe. Blakenhall's religious makeup as of the 2021 census was 40.7% Sikh

Was probably not the best example to chose to prove 'There are far more 'ghettos' stocked to the brim with wholly British people than foreign.'

If those descendants were born here they are British, but have every right to own their Indian ethnicity, and to choose which religion they follow. That's one really good thing about where we live, having the freedom in law to follow or not follow a religion without persecution. I am not personally religious, but it doesn't affect me that others are, as long as they do no harm while practising their own. Why should others be denied the same freedoms that you enjoy, just because they have different beliefs?

Love,

Caz
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[Geddy2112]

If those descendants were born here they are British,

Does not mean if you are born in a stable you are a horse. An old school chum was born in Germany, she is British. My daughter was born here in England and she is Polish. Religion is of course different to race.

[caz]

The hypocrisy of the UK is the reason why things appear to be in such a mucking fuddle.

Some moan that the foreigners are "coming over and taking our jobs" and yet without said "foreigners" the entire system would crumble; in part because the white middle classes don't want to lower themselves to work mundane jobs and in part because the white working classes are either too lazy or stubbom to do the jobs that foreigners would do.

This is all claptrap


Think of it as being at school...and being bullied in a school toilet by a group of bullies...but then rather than finding a subsequent time to confront and challenge them, you take that feeling of hopelessness and victimisation that you felt and instead choose to focus on attacking a random kid who arrives from another school overseas, and thus by proxy, adopting the behaviour of the original bullies.

Getting to the source of the problem is paramount.


When we consider the fact that geographically there is more land per square feet taken up by Golf Courses than there is allocated for social housing, then that should tell you all you need to know about what the system in the UK is really like.

When the day comes when at least half the golf course in the UK are commandeered and used for social housing to aid the scores of people who need shelter and a safe place to stay, then that's the day when we may actually get somewhere.

Squabbling over immigration is just a convenient side show that distracts from the real source of the problem at hand.


RD

Hi RD,

Down here in Devon, they are building estates of cardboard boxes, but in areas where there is none of the community infrastructure to go with the new housing and provide jobs: the lack of shops, schools, a doctor, dentist or library within walking distance; parks or safe play areas for the kids; pubs, cafes and regular bus or train services nearby for families who would struggle to run a car on top of paying the rent or mortgage. Taxis, for emergencies or those with spare cash, are already like hen's teeth due to all the school run contracts. But if you're lucky there'll probably be a church a mile or two away and a golf club.

All the services we took for granted, growing up in a London suburb in the 50s and 60s, must seem like an impossible dream for many young families today.

Nobody who enjoyed those advantages should have the right to pull up the drawbridge and actively deny them to the next generation.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Does not mean if you are born in a stable you are a horse. An old school chum was born in Germany, she is British. My daughter was born here in England and she is Polish. Religion is of course different to race.

I'm not touching this one - I'll leave it to others.