Useless Thread...

[Michael W Richards]

If a tree falls in the forest with no-one around does it make a sound? If it falls on someone, do they? Its not always necessary to have all the data to be able to make a reasonable conclusion about things.

But the democratic way means that any conclusions must be ok'd by committees, so even if someone makes a reasonable conclusion using only what is known, they will have to have committee approval for it. That aint gonna happen in Ripperology, too many individuals with preconceived notions.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Is a sound only a sound if those disruptions in the airwaves are detected by an organism capable of translating them into electrical activity with associated cognition?

As such, I'm going for "no". If a tree falls and no organisms translate that activity into perceivable "sound" then the sound never existed.

[Michael W Richards]

Is a sound only a sound if those disruptions in the airwaves are detected by an organism capable of translating them into electrical activity with associated cognition?

As such, I'm going for "no". If a tree falls and no organisms translate that activity into perceivable "sound" then the sound never existed.

So you subscribe to "sound" as being a 2 element event,... the source of the sound as one, and the sound recorder another? Interesting. As Im sure was clear in my post, I subscribe to the belief that when you know a falling tree does in fact make noise because you've heard it before yourself...you have been the recorder, your absence when it happens again doesn't alter that fact. Its why I added when it falls on someone, everyone knows that a human being will make noise when impacted by a heavy large object, even inadvertently. You don't need to hear it to know its truly there.

[JeffHamm]

So you subscribe to "sound" as being a 2 element event,... the source of the sound as one, and the sound recorder another? Interesting. As Im sure was clear in my post, I subscribe to the belief that when you know a falling tree does in fact make noise because you've heard it before yourself...you have been the recorder, your absence when it happens again doesn't alter that fact. Its why I added when it falls on someone, everyone knows that a human being will make noise when impacted by a heavy large object, even inadvertently. You don't need to hear it to know its truly there.

Sound refers to the perceptual event. Light waves do not have "colour", for example, they are just electromagnetic waves of differing frequencies. They are perceived as colour when they strike our retina and get translated into neurological signals that eventually result in the perception of colour. Sound is to hearing what colour is to seeing. When the tree falls in the forest it creates pressure waves in the air, that's the physical signal but it is not sound as that is the perceptual phenomenon (like the electromagnetic waves are the physical signal that are related to the perceptual phenomenon of colour). So, without a perceiver there can be the physical signal created but there cannot be the perceptual event, meaning there is no sound without something to translate the physical signal into a perceptual one.

So, if the tree falls on someone, that someone is the perceiver and so yes, there would be a sound. If that person were deaf, however, and there were no other organism that "hears", then no. Neither the tree nor the person created a sound, though both created disturbances in the air.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting discussion, but I think Jeff that the waves are created empirically when the treat falls, the fact that there is nothing to auditorily translate them into recognizable sounds doesn't affect that truth. So I suppose a better way to phrase that would be...that if a tree falls in the forest does it create waves that can be translated by a translator/receiver into recognizable sounds to a human, is more the accurate way to phrase it...and that answer would be yes.

[JeffHamm]

Interesting discussion, but I think Jeff that the waves are created empirically when the treat falls, the fact that there is nothing to auditorily translate them into recognizable sounds doesn't affect that truth. So I suppose a better way to phrase that would be...that if a tree falls in the forest does it create waves that can be translated by a translator/receiver into recognizable sounds to a human, is more the accurate way to phrase it...and that answer would be yes.

Yes I agree fully with the claim that if a tree falls in a forest, that is not itself contained within a vacuum, then there will result a series of pressure waves in the surrounding atmosphere. Those pressure waves, however, are not in and of themselves sound - they are the physical signal that are detected by a sensory organ which then produces neurological activity that, through mechanisms we do not know, result in the perceptual qualia we call sound. There is no requirement that the pressure waves are able to contact an auditory sense organ in order for those waves to be created. Nor is there any requirement for there to be pressure waves present in order for sound to be perceived (think auditory hallucinations; tinnitus; etc). Therefore sound and pressure waves are not identical, despite the high degree of correlation between them (pressure waves, within certain frequencies and amplitudes, will generally result in perceived sounds when detected by a normally functioning auditory system after all).

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

God, what have I started...

[JeffHamm]

God, what have I started...

I suspect god asks that question of themself on a regular basis.

- Jeff

[Dupin]

Off topic and probably infractional I guess, but if you have any interest of whether the Almighty questions his own actions, I would recommend the writings of C S Lewis.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Off topic and probably infractional I guess, but if you have any interest of whether the Almighty questions his own actions, I would recommend the writings of C S Lewis.

I'd recommend Jesus.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I'd recommend Jesus.

I'd recommend Dawkins and Hitchens.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I'd recommend Dawkins and Hitchens.

And with posts like that, the baby Jesus crys. I hope your happy, you made a baby cry.

[mpriestnall]

I'd recommend Jesus.

Where was Jesus when I needed to someone to fix my laptop, that's I want to know.

[mikey559]

Wow, here I am trying to be useless and it seems no one posts in here anymore. What a loss. We used to have fun in here.

[Enigma]

Leap Day approaches. This is the day all bachelors fear, and with good reason. I will be keeping a low profile.