Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

Here's a question for you Barn in your capacity as our local library expert;

I'm trying to find some Glasgow Corporation bus timetables from 1969 (just an idea I'm playing around with).

Do you think the Mitchell would have anything like this?

I found ones online for 1967 and 1970, but you have to pay for them, and I'm not convinced they would contain all the details I'm looking for so don't want to fork out unnecessarily.

[Ms Diddles]

“That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

Even if he suggested an alibi, and even if it was backed up they would still have wanted Jean to see him. How could this have been avoided without causing huge suspicion? And if it did then Jean must have rejected him. Yet the CC detectives suggest that Jean might not have seen him. If so, it’s a cover-up.

It definitely looks like there's something going on here.

There's a big part of the jigsaw missing.

I'm just a little resistant to the idea of a cover-up to protect McInnes' cousin for the reasons stated previously.

I haven't had chance to re-listen to the podcasts yet, but really need to do that, as I remember it goes into some detail about a possible cover-up.

Perhaps it will all make a bit more sense after that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

Cheers Barn. I’ll give it a try the next time I get to the library.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I’ve just ordered the Samson and Crow book Barn which I thought was unavailable for some reason. I’m not paying £65 for the Stoddart book though. I’ll wait til a cheaper copy becomes available.

Herlock, you can order the Stoddart book via your library on an Inter-Library-Loan.
Every book published in the UK is sent to one of six legal deposit libraries.

Your local library will get the book from one these six libraries.
There might be a charge of about a fiver or so, but when you get the book you can photocopy what you need under "fair use" guidelines.

[New Waterloo]

Yes agree with everybody regarding the strange attendance of such senior officers at Hamilton Police Station. It is most unusual for there to be one Superintendent let alone two!

I do think that as far as ruling out McInnes as BJ. Perhaps (although we may not like it) his teeth didn't match witness descriptions or the possible possible bite marks. (remember he had his own teeth then) Perhaps this group of four officers at that point in time were the only high level individuals who had knowledge of any bite marks and wanted to have a discreet look without arousing suspicion and tipping off any other offender of the trail they were following.

Another thought is that if McInnes cried help and his Chief Inspector relative appeared at Hamilton and became involved in talking with the investigators I believe it is procedurally correct or etiquette that in a serious investigation he would have to have been spoken to by an officer of the same rank or above. (Might be wrong but I think that is the case) So they arranged a high level team.

I think I am grasping at straws but a couple of ideas.

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, I agree that it's strange.

The fact that they brought out the Big Guns implies that rightly or wrongly, they really thought they were onto something.

Could it have been something that the Moylans manager said in relation to McInnes that got their antennae pinging?

If so though, that would seem to contradict the idea that Mickey Moylan couldn't recall McInnes being mentioned.

It could have been something he said but you could also have been right about the description. So it might have been a case of…they find a Moylan’s card at the scene then they talk to various people at and find that McInnes is a dead ringer for the description given by Jean. Maybe someone tells them that he’d mentioned the Barrowland? Or that he’d expressed certain opinions about the married women that frequented the place. Any detective would have felt that they were on the right track.

To quote Cobalt though:

“That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

Even if he suggested an alibi, and even if it was backed up they would still have wanted Jean to see him. How could this have been avoided without causing huge suspicion? And if it did then Jean must have rejected him. Yet the CC detectives suggest that Jean might not have seen him. If so, it’s a cover-up.

[barnflatwyngarde]

That's a great (and extremely atmospheric) documentary, Barn.

I've never seen it before.

Thanks for posting.

I noticed among all the evidence files, there was one entitled "Hair Pieces".

Was there some speculation that BJ wore a wig?

I'm just curious as I'd never heard this before!

I have no idea why they would be interested in hair piece suppliers Ms D.

My understanding is that witnesses were consistent in their description of his hair colour and style.
They did interview lots of barbers re Bible John's hair style, so the "hair piece suppliers" thing will probably remain a mystery.

I also noticed a box file headed "John at Glasgow Night School".
Did they think that his erudition leaned toward him pursuing night classes, bearing mind that he told Jeannie and Helen that he was in full time employment?

So many things we just don't know, and a lot of what we do know doesn't quite make sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just ordered the Samson and Crow book Barn which I thought was unavailable for some reason. I’m not paying £65 for the Stoddart book though. I’ll wait til a cheaper copy becomes available.

[Ms Diddles]

Here is a link to a very interesting, if relatively brief at 25 minutes, documentary on Bible John.
What is particularly interesting that there are a few detectives who worked on the case talking about their experiences.

Also there is an interesting clip of Carmichael Lane, the scene of Pat Docker's murder, that shows that the body was located in a slight alcove next to a garage in the lane, this would give the killer a certain degree of privacy in which to commit the murder.

I think that this case requires lots of pulling together of little pieces of information wherever we can find them to try and understand it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1OFEq1nvV8&t=1s

That's a great (and extremely atmospheric) documentary, Barn.

I've never seen it before.

Thanks for posting.

I noticed among all the evidence files, there was one entitled "Hair Pieces".

Was there some speculation that BJ wore a wig?

I'm just curious as I'd never heard this before!

[cobalt]

So why did four top ranked detectives descend on Hamilton police station? If McInnes was a person of interest he could have been driven to Glasgow by local police to be interviewed in the lion's den, so to speak. A 30 minute car journey inside a police car would unnerve many and make them less resistant to questioning. That's pretty much standard police procedure I think.

As I wrote earlier, I imagine that a group of high profile detectives converging on a provincial police station would spark more rumours than if the suspect had been interviewed in Glasgow. So I can't see this as a low key approach to spare the feelings of Jimmy McInnes.

Was the Stonehouse/Hamilton area significant because the detectives believed they could seize blood stained clothing and some items linked to the victim, Helen Puttock? Perhaps, but that action could have been delegated to local police officers.

To me it looks like these senior detectives were confident they had their man and were anticipating the photo opportunity of a lifetime as they made 'the pinch.' Such glory was not to be snatched from them by a Detective Inspector out in 'the sticks.' However something or somebody- maybe an alibi witness; a perfectly clean suit; - put a spoke in that particular wheel.

That still leaves us with the problem of why the detectives thought McInnes was such a strong suspect in the first place. And on top of that, why did they drop him like a hot potato?

[Ms Diddles]

Nice photo's, and I see that you managed to capture a Glasgow puddle!

Ha! That's always easily done!

We managed a couple of pints outside Websters before the obligatory downpour though, so it's a win!

[Ms Diddles]

That makes sense Ms D but it still seems strange that those senior officers went to Stonehouse.

Yes, I agree that it's strange.

The fact that they brought out the Big Guns implies that rightly or wrongly, they really thought they were onto something.

Could it have been something that the Moylans manager said in relation to McInnes that got their antennae pinging?

If so though, that would seem to contradict the idea that Mickey Moylan couldn't recall McInnes being mentioned.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh! I am terrible at posting pictures on here and couldn't manage to edit my last post to give a description of the photos.

You’re a damned sight better than I am.

1) The entrance to Kelvingrove Park at the end of Derby St (which is parallel to Gray St).

2) The fountain. Just because it's nice!

3) The Kelvin River walkway from which you can cut right under Kelvinbridge / Great Western Rd.

4) A modern development on the route just before you reach Melrose Gardens. If you zoom in at the top of the picture amid the tree branches, you can see the row of tenements which leads straight to Melrose Gdns. It occurred to me that before the modern buildings were there it may have been possible to stick with the river walkway and emerge right next to those tenements.

5) Melrose Gardens.

It's a really easy, direct, mainly flat route. We did it in around 30 mins but were sauntering and pausing to look at and discuss aspects of the route.

A fit young guy walking briskly could have done it in around 15 / 20 mins, no problem.

Thanks for posting these Ms D. It’s always good to put pictures to location names.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Could it have perhaps been something as banal as the fact that McInnes fitted the physical description and perhaps was known to frequent the Barrowlands?

It might have taken them a couple of days to speak to the managers at Moylans to get a list of employees who fitted the bill.

That makes sense Ms D but it still seems strange that those senior officers went to Stonehouse.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Oh! I am terrible at posting pictures on here and couldn't manage to edit my last post to give a description of the photos.

1) The entrance to Kelvingrove Park at the end of Derby St (which is parallel to Gray St).

2) The fountain. Just because it's nice!

3) The Kelvin River walkway from which you can cut right under Kelvinbridge / Great Western Rd.

4) A modern development on the route just before you reach Melrose Gardens. If you zoom in at the top of the picture amid the tree branches, you can see the row of tenements which leads straight to Melrose Gdns. It occurred to me that before the modern buildings were there it may have been possible to stick with the river walkway and emerge right next to those tenements.

5) Melrose Gardens.

It's a really easy, direct, mainly flat route. We did it in around 30 mins but were sauntering and pausing to look at and discuss aspects of the route.

A fit young guy walking briskly could have done it in around 15 / 20 mins, no problem.

Nice photo's, and I see that you managed to capture a Glasgow puddle!

Re the time scales from Gray Street to Melrose Gardens, I think that your 15-20 minute estimate is spot on.