Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wow, that's an absolute doozy!

When McInnes died he had dentures, and it is widely reported that no trace of any dental records had been found.
So how on earth can anyone say that Odontology suggests that McInnes bit Helen Puttock?

For the journalist to say this, the information must have come from a police source.

This damn case just keeps on throwing up surprises and questions.

I get the impression that this might just have been sloppy reporting though Barn. They certainly knew that Helen had been bitten but they couldn’t determine if it was by McInnes because he had dentures (as you say). I think they might have just carelessly moved from - someone bit her but we can’t prove who, to - they know that McInnes bit her but they can’t prove it.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Well, Barn may feel otherwise but I actually think that these locations will have changed very little in the intervening years.

I'm quite familiar with Earl St and Harland Cottages (as well as the Yoker end of Dumbarton Rd where John Templeton lived with his foster family) as I used to manage flats in these locations for many years.

I've been in the back courts of Earl St (though never number 95) and other than security doors on the closes and indoor toilets, they remain the same as in 1969.

Harland Cottages is now quite dilapidated and riddled with damp, but it does feel quite like stepping back in time there.

I hear you about wanting to see more pics from '69 though.

I guess I could get some pals to wear flares and beehives, and take some pics in black and white!

Ms D, I agree with you that apart from the security entry doors, and the tidying up of the back court, nothing much would have changed.
In a previous life, long ago, I was in charge of Bridgeton, Whiteinch and Langside libraries, all very close to the murder scenes,and not once did it ever occur to me to take photos of the crime scenes.
Doh!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Barn may feel otherwise but I actually think that these locations will have changed very little in the intervening years.

I'm quite familiar with Earl St and Harland Cottages (as well as the Yoker end of Dumbarton Rd where John Templeton lived with his foster family) as I used to manage flats in these locations for many years.

I've been in the back courts of Earl St (though never number 95) and other than security doors on the closes and indoor toilets, they remain the same as in 1969.

Harland Cottages is now quite dilapidated and riddled with damp, but it does feel quite like stepping back in time there.

I hear you about wanting to see more pics from '69 though.

I guess I could get some pals to wear flares and beehives, and take some pics in black and white!

Worth a try.

You could find out where Audrey Gillan lives and invite yourself over for tea. Then drive over to Earl Street with her and ask her to clarify what she thinks happened and how it could possibly have tied in with the MacDonald sighting. I’m sure that we would all appreciate your efforts.

[New Waterloo]

Thank you Herlock for relooking at the leaving of the taxi and paying the fare part of this.

I am off on a tangent again and perhaps stating the bl..dy obvious. But the police did have details of McInnes's teeth. They must have seen them when the senior officers spoke with him shortly after the murder of Helen.

This is another part of the mystery. We have Beattie sitting in his office with a mold of the offenders teeth, and McInnes apparently speaking with police who were very able to look at his front teeth and the area of the missing tooth at that time by simply asking him to open his mouth.

There seemed to be no problem in examining George Puttocks body for defense wounds at the time.

Perhaps they were keeping the bite marks evidence from him sort of not playing all their cards at once

All very odd

NW

[Ms Diddles]

Ms D, I agree with you that apart from the security entry doors, and the tidying up of the back court, nothing much would have changed.
In a previous life, long ago, I was in charge of Bridgeton, Whiteinch and Langside libraries, all very close to the murder scenes,and not once did it ever occur to me to take photos of the crime scenes.
Doh!

If I'm not mistaken the original tenements on Mackeith Street are long since bulldozed, but Carmichael Lane and Earl St are pretty much as was.

It's a shame you didn't have the foresight to grab some pics when you had the opportunity.

Same with me when I was out at Earl St on a regular basis!

I was aware of the history, but just didn't think to do so!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thank you Herlock for relooking at the leaving of the taxi and paying the fare part of this.

I am off on a tangent again and perhaps stating the bl..dy obvious. But the police did have details of McInnes's teeth. They must have seen them when the senior officers spoke with him shortly after the murder of Helen.

This is another part of the mystery. We have Beattie sitting in his office with a mold of the offenders teeth, and McInnes apparently speaking with police who were very able to look at his front teeth and the area of the missing tooth at that time by simply asking him to open his mouth.

There seemed to be no problem in examining George Puttocks body for defense wounds at the time.

Perhaps they were keeping the bite marks evidence from him sort of not playing all their cards at once

All very odd

NW

There’s plenty of inexplicables in this case NW and some of it can’t fail to lead some to conclude that the police might have been keen to cover something up (whether that was actually the case or not) Perhaps it could be said that even if McInnes’s teeth had matched the description given by Jean it might have been suggested that many men might have had front teeth that crossed slightly? The suggestion from the podcast is that Jean never actually saw McInnes which is almost impossible to explain without a sinister explanation. So we have the police clearly looking for John Irvine McInnes no more than 48 hours after Helen’s body was found. McInnes’s own cousin said that this was because of a Moylan’s card found at the crime scene. How can he not have been put in front of Jean? She is THE witness in the case.

Another possible explanation might have been (and I’m taking into consideration that DI Johnston had been told by a fellow detective officer that Jean had said that she wasn’t sure how much help she could be as a witness because of how drunk she’d been - something that she later denied) that maybe Jean saw McInnes but couldn’t pick him out?

[barnflatwyngarde]

There’s plenty of inexplicables in this case NW and some of it can’t fail to lead some to conclude that the police might have been keen to cover something up (whether that was actually the case or not) Perhaps it could be said that even if McInnes’s teeth had matched the description given by Jean it might have been suggested that many men might have had front teeth that crossed slightly? The suggestion from the podcast is that Jean never actually saw McInnes which is almost impossible to explain without a sinister explanation. So we have the police clearly looking for John Irvine McInnes no more than 48 hours after Helen’s body was found. McInnes’s own cousin said that this was because of a Moylan’s card found at the crime scene. How can he not have been put in front of Jean? She is THE witness in the case.

Another possible explanation might have been (and I’m taking into consideration that DI Johnston had been told by a fellow detective officer that Jean had said that she wasn’t sure how much help she could be as a witness because of how drunk she’d been - something that she later denied) that maybe Jean saw McInnes but couldn’t pick him out?

What keeps getting batted around re this case is just how reliable is Jeannie's evidence re what Bible John looked like and what he said in the taxi.

You are correct that according to Det Joe Jackson Jeannie wasn't sure how much use she would be because she "had a bucketful last night".
However Jackson also says that he thought that Beattie "kept something back" in relation to Bible John.
Whether this was something about his appearance, or something he said is not known.

However on page 127 of "Dancing With the Devil" Joe Beattie says:

"Jean remains the best, most reasoned witness I have ever worked with, she had a real eye for detail and was meticulous in her description and recollection of events.
Over long periods of time I constantly quizzed her about everything that happened; she reiterated the same detail time and again, not all of which was made public-we liked to keep some things back and out of the public limelight." (My emphasis)

So Joe trusted Jeannie's statements, and made it clear that she provided thim with some information that would probably be a "clincher" if the killer was ever confronted.
This backs up Joe Jackson's suspicion that Beattie was holding something back.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It’s a frustrating part of the case Barn. We have, according to the cold case detectives, McInnes being picked out by the fourth person in the taxi…Alexander Hannah, and one of the Barrowland bouncers and yet nothing from Jean. I think it’s worth remembering though that we can’t be sure how good was his sighting. Part of the time through a mirror, then perhaps as he turned to receive the money then when he saw John walk over to Helen. This certainly doesn’t negate or diminish his identification but I just think it’s worth considering.

Garcia said that McInnes had been brought to the police station four times but he hadn’t been picked out. Is it possible that he was put in front of Jean and she failed to pick him out?

Has anyone considered the following though?

During the cold case investigation Jean was shown a photograph of McInnes and said that there were similarities but that she didn’t think that it was him. Alexander Hannah picked him out put pointed out that he looked older in the photograph. That was because the photograph was taken a few years after the murders after McInnes had been arrested for other offences. So…might not Jean have narrowly rejected the same photo as being of the man in the taxi because it was taken when that man was slightly older and looked slightly different?

[cobalt]

Mrs D,

Many thanks for the information relating to ferry crossings over the Clyde- it's fascinating social history.
So the BJ suspect on the late night bus- the dishevelled one who resembled the description offered up by Jeannie- was perhaps headed for the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, which ferry would take him over to the Govan area south of the river.

Was this the best option for a man looking to put clear water between himself and the crime though? According to the historical link there were once three available ferry crossings between Earl Street and the city centre. I have no idea if they were still all operating in 1969 and whether if they did, that included a late night service which the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, near the city centre, obviously did. So I am interested in whether the BJ suspect decided to choose the Kelvinhaugh Crossing since it took him nearer to his destination in Govan, or whether it was the only service still operating. Any help much appreciated.

The Clyde Tunnel opened in 1963 so was well established by the time of the murders. It became the main route for cars crossing the river although I believe there is a pedestrian walkway available as well. For a person moving eastwards from Earl Street, the Clyde Tunnel is an available option to cross the River Clyde some distance before Gardner Street in Partick, the place where the BJ suspect boarded the bus. So instead of walking 2.5 miles to Gardner Street to catch a bus that dropped him off near Kelvinhaugh Ferry crossing, our BJ suspect could have walked through the Clyde Tunnel and within 3 miles of Earl Street found himself in Govan just as quickly. And as it turned out, maybe attracted less attention as well.

I think the sighting on the late night bus is a strong lead given its timing, the state of the passenger and the similarity to Jeannie's description. Whether the police tracked that lead down to Berkeley Street or the Govan area we do not know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was curious as to what the ferry looked like. According to someone in the chat, this is the Kelvinhaugh Ferry.

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/media/clyde-passenger-ferry.92614/

And it looks like that boat has been preserved.

https://www.blipfoto.com/entry/2269167174138462510

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didn’t know that Patrick Marine Police Station used to be used as an exterior in Taggart. I think that the cells may have been used too. It’s no longer a Police Station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/joe90bem/6156153593

[barnflatwyngarde]

Playing around with a way to upload Street View images.
It looks ok at my end, so hopefully the quality will be ok when I post it.

This is the lane at Carmichael Place where Patricia Docker's body was found.
The crime scene is at the far end of the lane.

The other end of the lane is closed off with a wooden fence.
You can zoom in to the lane to get a better view.

The striking thing is that the crime took place in a very populated area.
The risks are obvious!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Playing around with a way to upload Street View images.
It looks ok at my end, so hopefully the quality will be ok when I post it.

This is the lane at Carmichael Place where Patricia Docker's body was found.
The crime scene is at the far end of the lane.

The other end of the lane is closed off with a wooden fence.
You can zoom in to the lane to get a better view.

The striking thing is that the crime took place in a very populated area.
The risks are obvious!

Cheers Barn. It has the look of being through one of those ‘fish eye’ lenses on my iPad. I don’t know how the photo appears to others. It’s still a good picture though. Thanks for posting it.

[Ms Diddles]

Mrs D,

Many thanks for the information relating to ferry crossings over the Clyde- it's fascinating social history.
So the BJ suspect on the late night bus- the dishevelled one who resembled the description offered up by Jeannie- was perhaps headed for the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, which ferry would take him over to the Govan area south of the river.

Hi Cobalt,

From what I can see the Kelvinhaugh Ferry would have sailed from Yorkhill Quay to Princes Dock, which I guess we would call Princes Quay now.

It's technically more Cessnock than Govan, but in the same general area.


Was this the best option for a man looking to put clear water between himself and the crime though? According to the historical link there were once three available ferry crossings between Earl Street and the city centre. I have no idea if they were still all operating in 1969 and whether if they did, that included a late night service which the Kelvinhaugh Crossing, near the city centre, obviously did. So I am interested in whether the BJ suspect decided to choose the Kelvinhaugh Crossing since it took him nearer to his destination in Govan, or whether it was the only service still operating. Any help much appreciated.

Well, I suppose it depends on where on the Southside you were trying to get to.

If you were headed to Govan, Linthouse or Cardonald (all southwest) you would be better off going through the Clyde Tunnel walkway as you mentioned.

If you were making for the more central southside, incidentally where Pat Docker was found (Govanhill, Pollokshields, Cathcart etc) the ferry to Princes Dock would maybe be a slightly better option.

The other ferry services heading east towards the city centre from Earl St were:

The Whiteinch Ferry (James St, Whiteinch sailing to Linthouse) which was withdrawn in 1963.

The Meadowside Ferry (Meadowside St, Partick sailing to Holm St in Govan) which was withdrawn Jan 1966.

The Govan Ferry (Ferry Rd, Partick sailing to Water Row, Govan) also withdrawn Jan 1966.

So none were operating in 1969 apart from the Kelvinhaugh one and the Yoker / Renfrew one much further west from Earl St.

The Clyde Tunnel opened in 1963 so was well established by the time of the murders. It became the main route for cars crossing the river although I believe there is a pedestrian walkway available as well. For a person moving eastwards from Earl Street, the Clyde Tunnel is an available option to cross the River Clyde some distance before Gardner Street in Partick, the place where the BJ suspect boarded the bus. So instead of walking 2.5 miles to Gardner Street to catch a bus that dropped him off near Kelvinhaugh Ferry crossing, our BJ suspect could have walked through the Clyde Tunnel and within 3 miles of Earl Street found himself in Govan just as quickly. And as it turned out, maybe attracted less attention as well.

Agree! Unless it was elsewhere on the Southside that he was making for and not Govan.


I think the sighting on the late night bus is a strong lead given its timing, the state of the passenger and the similarity to Jeannie's description. Whether the police tracked that lead down to Berkeley Street or the Govan area we do not know.

Again, I agree that this sighting was significant.

IIRC the ferry staff were questioned and couldn't recall seeing anyone fitting the suspects description.

Looking at the pictures that Herlock posted, the ferry looks pretty small and would presumably have been relatively quiet at 5am.

I find it hard to believe that the boatmen would have failed to notice a tall, slim, dishevelled sandy-haired guy.

I'm really not sure why the police were so persistent in their theory that the suspect was heading for the ferry / trying to get to Govan.

Taking all of the above into account I'm inclined to think that the whole ferry / Southside / Govan thing is a red herring.

To me it seems more plausible that the suspect got off the bus at Gray St because he lived or was staying near there (Templeton, McInnes and anyone else living in that part of the west end at the time!)

As I've mentioned previously Gray St would also be an ideal location if you wanted to cut through Kelvingrove Park / The Kelvin walkway in the dark from where you could access lots of different parts of the west end without hitting any of the main, lit thoroughfares.

[Ms Diddles]

I didn’t know that Patrick Marine Police Station used to be used as an exterior in Taggart. I think that the cells may have been used too. It’s no longer a Police Station.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/joe90bem/6156153593

I didn't know that either Herlock.

I occasionally like watching old episodes of Taggart just to spot the locations.

I'm always hoping to see one of the flats I've lived in over the years, or one of the pubs I've frequented, but it's never happened yet.