Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[barnflatwyngarde]

Apologies for the double post. Delete if able to.

Herlock's second option:

This seems barely credible. Four police officers of a high rank were prepared to risk their reputations, if not their careers, in order to cover up for a serial killer? John McInnes was hardly someone special- he was actually convicted, for fraud I think- a few years later.

As a former trade union representative I have had first hand experience of cover ups, collusion and law bending in local authorities in Scotland. Senior positions in the police force, NHS and education are invariably filled by freemasons, an organisation with a very strong presence in the Lanarkshire area and one that has a duty to help 'a brother in distress.' However I cannot believe that obligation extends to covering up for a murderer, especially one who could have struck again. In the McInnes case, were he guilty, then he could have been quietly sectioned by a medical panel and incarcerated inside the state mental hospital at Carstairs.

There is another organisation which wielded great power in central Scotland at the time but I will leave that for my final post today.

Great post cobalt.
Yes, when you lay out what is involved in a major cover up, it does look like a bit of a stretch.
A cover up of this scale, involving murders, is a very, very risky undertaking indeed.

I think I know what organisation you refer to.
I will await your post with interest.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great post cobalt.
Yes, when you lay out what is involved in a major cover up, it does look like a bit of a stretch.
A cover up of this scale, involving murders, is a very, very risky undertaking indeed.

I think I know what organisation you refer to.
I will await your post with interest.

Barn, a final piece of translation for you. It’s from the final episode Something Else Was Pursued and it’s at around 3.02. It’s the sentence just before the line…So that's familiar?

Cheers.

[cobalt]

Hi Barn,

I think you have with great weariness I am sure understood the organisation I referred to. More powerful than the Freemasons or even the local Labour Party in Hamilton. I am referring to the UK government. Who else could have exerted the authority to baulk a murder investigation which saw four senior detectives converge on Hamilton for a photo opportunity to snare Bible John only to be denied. He was not far off being 'bang to rights.' Not the local Labour Party I am sure.

Peter Manuel, probably Scotland's most notorious serial killer inside the country, had a father who was a local Labour councillor and they lived pretty close to John McInnes albeit Manuel's murders were a decade earlier. On several occasions Manuel senior gave alibis to his son- who he knew was a bad piece of work- which may have stalled investigations. Manuel himself was an adept burglar with a great capacity to wriggle in and out of properties so it may be Manuel senior was offering what he thought were genuine alibis. But Manuel senior's position as a local councillor may have made the police back off a little. Which reminds me of BJ's harangue at the cigarette machine: 'Who is the MP for this area!' What a strange thing to say. Or Jimmy McInnes puling rank. Was it Jimmy McInnes who was on Jeannie's ID parade?

Stonehouse, where John McInnes grew up, was a village of around 3,000 people which it remains to this day. However from the 1950s there had been plans to make the area a 'new town' to relieve the pressure on Glasgow housing shortage. The plan was for a new town of 35,000 people in Stonehouse. It met resistance from Glasgow politicians who felt the money should be better spent on regenerating Glasgow so the scheme was up in the air in the mid 1960s. Until a seismic event occurred which resonates to this day.

The Scottish National Party were a fringe group in 1967. Their members were well intentioned, educated professionals, coupled with a few disgruntled lairds, some eccentrics and the odd poet. They had no roots what so ever in the working class of Scotland. Then Hamilton happened.

Today that is very different. The SNP are now the natural party of government in Scotland and have recently sent 50 MPs to the UK government. But back then they had nothing- not a single MP- until, in a political tsunami, they won the Hamilton by-election in 1967. It was beyond belief. Hamilton was regarded as a Labour 'fiefdom.' The bookies were offering 10/1 against on the day of the vote. The modern SNP argue on many issues, but to a man and woman they all agree that the Hamilton by election, won by Winnie Ewing in 1967, was the genesis of the modern SNP. Not just the Labour Party, who had been humiliated, but all the other parties were terrified. There was a new force in the land.

Enter the Stonehouse New Town project, kept on the back burner for many a year. This was a way to see off the SNP challenge they thought. But it never took root and only around 10,00 houses were ever built, if that. But the last thing they needed was a serial killer from Stonehouse in 1969 to put the kybosh on the whole programme. Was it a question of 'Politics dear chap.' Or did McInnes have connections to the local Labour Party that would have damaged their reputation at the ballot box? Of course I have no idea but the Labour Party in Scotland were from my personal experience terrified by the SNP surge at that time.

Would the Scottish Labour Party, part of the UK Labour government, cover up a murder? Undoubtedly yes. But only in theory as far as state power exerts itself. This was not state murder, this was an individual hell bent on killing women and if he was an embarrassment to the status quo then the obvious place for him was Carstairs. They could not know when or if he would stop.

I'm at a loss really. I've considered police incompetence, police corruption, political interference and am still struggling to make a decentargument about the Hamilton affair. All responses are welcome.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As it stands, and is likely to continue to stand, I can see no answer to Cobalt’s main question which doesn’t leave us with huge doubts. According to the evidence uncovered by the ‘96 investigation, which we have no reason to doubt, it does appear that something dodgy was going on but how far did it go?

Is it possible that it was Jimmy McInnes who sought to hinder the investigation to protect his family and that Beattie only found out later? It seems unlikely but when we have missing details interpretations can be affected. Could he have tipped off John Irvine McInnes allowing him to arrange for an alibi? Could he have threatened Mrs Palka when he went to interview her or might he have reported back to Beattie that she was just a time waster? Could he have deliberately got Alexander Hannah out of the station so that he couldn’t have attended the line up? Might Jeannie have actually seen McInnes at a line up and expressed doubt (there was talk, after all, of her having more to drink than she’d admitted to) and with McInnes ‘alibi’ Beattie sought to make it clear to everyone that she ‘wasn’t having him’ as the man in the taxi? When the ‘96 officers claimed that the timeline meant that Jeannie hadn’t seen McInnes how certain could they have been? What time had he left Hamilton station as it appears that the ID parade took place at 2pm. I’m not challenging what they said but how certain can they be that the times didn’t add up. Would there really have been a record as to what time that McInnes might have been taken from Hamilton to Partick Marine?

No, I’m not particularly convinced by my suggestion either but the alternative still leaves me uncomfortable (and not because I think that the police of the 1960’s were paragons) I just can’t see them covering up for a three-time killer. Beattie hardly comes across as the kind of man that would have tacitly accepted this black mark of failure against his record. So might he have been convinced of McInnes innocence (for whatever reason) and agreed to collude with his pal Jimmy McInnes to keep his cousins name out of the investigation? I’m not convinced but I’m less uncomfortable with this ‘explanation’ than the other. Basically, I haven’t a clue.

I’ll throw out one suggestion though in regard to one specific aspect of the case. How did the police get John Irvine McInnes name? The Moylan’s card was obviously the starting point but this didn’t lead them straight to Stonehouse as they didn’t go there until two days after Helen Puttock’s was killed so we know that card didn’t directly lead them to him. Meaning that the card clearly didn’t have his name on it. Was his name mentioned by another source and when they found that he worked for Moylan’s it was “bingo”? Or could it just have been a case of the time that a process of elimination might have taken? We know that Moylan’s had stores in Hamilton and Wishaw (I don’t know if they had stores elsewhere?) but we can’t guess how many employees they might have had? Might the police have been working their way through Moylan’s employees before being left with John Irvine McInnes name? Did they deliberately leave him until last, hoping that the killer turned out to have been another employee, leaving the McInnes name out of the enquiry? Or did the two salesman mention seeing McInnes at the Barrowland on the night that Helen was killed?

What I find a little surprising perhaps is that, from the ‘96 detectives, it doesn’t appear that the boss, Mickey Moylan, wasn’t aware of any concerted attempt by the police to interview all of his employees. He only mentions Tom Murphy and Len Smith being contacted. How can it have taken the police between 24 and 48 hours to contact these two? Mickey Moylan didn’t recall McInnes’s name ever being mentioned but wouldn’t the two salesmen have mentioned to him the fact that they had told the police about him; about seeing him at Barrowland.

So is it likeliest that the police found the card, contacted Moylan’s for a list of employees, began tracking these men down, got to Smith and Murphy who mentioned seeing McInnes that night? Against this we have the podcast saying that these two men never mentioned the name McInnes being mentioned by the police. But…no detail is given about what they did or didn’t say.




So basically… I don’t know.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Barn, a final piece of translation for you. It’s from the final episode Something Else Was Pursued and it’s at around 3.02. It’s the sentence just before the line…So that's familiar?

Cheers.

From 02.52.

"That rings a bell you know".
AG "So thats...."
"That monument, that monument rings a bell".
AG "That's the Battlefield Monumentl, to Mary Queen of Scots. So that's familiar"?
"I think so".

Cheers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From 02.52.

"That rings a bell you know".
AG "So thats...."
"That monument, that monument rings a bell".
AG "That's the Battlefield Monumentl, to Mary Queen of Scots. So that's familiar"?
"I think so".

Cheers.

Thanks Barn

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi Barn,

I think you have with great weariness I am sure understood the organisation I referred to. More powerful than the Freemasons or even the local Labour Party in Hamilton. I am referring to the UK government. Who else could have exerted the authority to baulk a murder investigation which saw four senior detectives converge on Hamilton for a photo opportunity to snare Bible John only to be denied. He was not far off being 'bang to rights.' Not the local Labour Party I am sure.

Peter Manuel, probably Scotland's most notorious serial killer inside the country, had a father who was a local Labour councillor and they lived pretty close to John McInnes albeit Manuel's murders were a decade earlier. On several occasions Manuel senior gave alibis to his son- who he knew was a bad piece of work- which may have stalled investigations. Manuel himself was an adept burglar with a great capacity to wriggle in and out of properties so it may be Manuel senior was offering what he thought were genuine alibis. But Manuel senior's position as a local councillor may have made the police back off a little. Which reminds me of BJ's harangue at the cigarette machine: 'Who is the MP for this area!' What a strange thing to say. Or Jimmy McInnes puling rank. Was it Jimmy McInnes who was on Jeannie's ID parade?

Stonehouse, where John McInnes grew up, was a village of around 3,000 people which it remains to this day. However from the 1950s there had been plans to make the area a 'new town' to relieve the pressure on Glasgow housing shortage. The plan was for a new town of 35,000 people in Stonehouse. It met resistance from Glasgow politicians who felt the money should be better spent on regenerating Glasgow so the scheme was up in the air in the mid 1960s. Until a seismic event occurred which resonates to this day.

The Scottish National Party were a fringe group in 1967. Their members were well intentioned, educated professionals, coupled with a few disgruntled lairds, some eccentrics and the odd poet. They had no roots what so ever in the working class of Scotland. Then Hamilton happened.

Today that is very different. The SNP are now the natural party of government in Scotland and have recently sent 50 MPs to the UK government. But back then they had nothing- not a single MP- until, in a political tsunami, they won the Hamilton by-election in 1967. It was beyond belief. Hamilton was regarded as a Labour 'fiefdom.' The bookies were offering 10/1 against on the day of the vote. The modern SNP argue on many issues, but to a man and woman they all agree that the Hamilton by election, won by Winnie Ewing in 1967, was the genesis of the modern SNP. Not just the Labour Party, who had been humiliated, but all the other parties were terrified. There was a new force in the land.

Enter the Stonehouse New Town project, kept on the back burner for many a year. This was a way to see off the SNP challenge they thought. But it never took root and only around 10,00 houses were ever built, if that. But the last thing they needed was a serial killer from Stonehouse in 1969 to put the kybosh on the whole programme. Was it a question of 'Politics dear chap.' Or did McInnes have connections to the local Labour Party that would have damaged their reputation at the ballot box? Of course I have no idea but the Labour Party in Scotland were from my personal experience terrified by the SNP surge at that time.

Would the Scottish Labour Party, part of the UK Labour government, cover up a murder? Undoubtedly yes. But only in theory as far as state power exerts itself. This was not state murder, this was an individual hell bent on killing women and if he was an embarrassment to the status quo then the obvious place for him was Carstairs. They could not know when or if he would stop.

I'm at a loss really. I've considered police incompetence, police corruption, political interference and am still struggling to make a decentargument about the Hamilton affair. All responses are welcome.

Very interesting take on the case cobalt.

There is no doubt that something made some detectives skew, twist and ignore facts relating to the case, and possibly even destroy evidence.
The question is why!

Your assessment of West of Scotland society in the later part of the twentieth century is spot on, although it may come as a bit of a shock to people unfamiliar with Glasgow and its environs.

The two major influences on Glasgow Police and Scottish local government in that period were the Freemasons and the absolute power of the Scottish Labour Party.

The influence of the Labour Party has waned in recent years, but the power of the Freemasons remains formidable in local government and Police Scotland.
I know quite a few people who joined the masons simply to get ahead in local government, and it always worked!

If I had to choose an external force which influenced the investigation of the case, I would plump for the Masonic influence.
It just seems more likely than political interference, but I rule absolutely nothing out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As it stands, and is likely to continue to stand, I can see no answer to Cobalt’s main question which doesn’t leave us with huge doubts.

I just noticed a typo. It should have read “…I can see no answer to Cobalt’s main question which does leave us with huge doubts.

[cobalt]

The influence of the Labour Party has waned in recent years, but the power of the Freemasons remains formidable in local government and Police Scotland.
I know quite a few people who joined the masons simply to get ahead in local government, and it always worked!

I have known quite a number of people who joined both organisations - just to be on the safe side! Membership was seen not just as providing a helping hand with a person's career but also as a safety net if they screwed up badly at their work.

Regarding the 'Hamilton incident' I can only think that the investigating officers who descended en masse to the the police station were furnished with an alibi for McInnes by a person of high rank in either (or maybe both) of the organisations mentioned above. Rather than attempt to break the alibi- which would be normal procedure with a strong suspect- a decision was made to accept it at face value. Thus the police could later claim, if McInnes struck again, that they had been deceived; the burden of guilt would then fall not upon them but the person who supplied the alibi.

I am sure if this is what happened then the police would have pointed out the ramifications to the supplier of the alibi should it turn out to be false. Presumably this person, aware that McInnes himself now knew the game was all but up, was confident of no more Barrowland murders. He would know that McInnes was conscious of being the major suspect and fearful of bringing shame on his entire family.

This makes some kind of sense to me, but I still can't figure out why someone important would take a gamble on protecting McInnes who seems an unexceptional person.

[New Waterloo]

A thought.

Why would McInnes be protected by the police. I am going to make what on the surface may be a way out suggestion and maybe it has been suggested before. It is not unusual in policing (and I know this from personal experience) that members of the public (often relatives of an officer) would on occasions carry out casual observations in a licenced premises or shop for some types offending such as dipping into tills by bar staff or licencing matters (serving after permitted hours).

I am not sure if this continues today. I very much doubt it because of Health and Safety and other legal issues but it did certainly up until the early 1980s.

The non police observer would go into the pub as a customer and report back anything he saw. Mostly this would be carried out by police officers from other areas unknown to locals but sometimes relatives even friends would be used. Undercover officers would not be used for relatively minor crime which I guess this is why the method was used.

In fact I believe Trading Standards to this day still use underage people to make test purchases for cigarettes extra.

What if McInnes was 'employed' in such a way, free night out just watch what was going on and report back.

Can you imagine the outrage which would follow if somebody being used by the police was found to be BJ. I do believe however that the senior officers would not cover for such a murderer if he was responsible but perhaps the senior investigators didn't examine any alibi McInnes gave robustly enough. As soon as an alibi given by him seemed reasonable enough then eliminate him from the enquiry. problem gone so to speak.

Answers on a postcard please to 'does this sound daft'

NW

[cobalt]

It's an interesting suggestion. Two of the UK's most infamous murderers- John Christie of Rillington Place and Fred West- were low level police informers. This doubtless helped them avoid too much scrutiny although that conditional immunity did not spare them being brought to justice when the full horror was revealed.

Nearer to Bible John territory we had the terrible case of Thomas Hamilton who carried out the Dunblane massacre at a local primary school. Despite subsequent attempts to portray Hamilton as a 'loner' this man had a small group of friends which included at least one police officer. Rumours about his unhealthy interest in boys were well known locally to the extent that some places were reluctant to accept hires for his youth clubs. When a low ranking detective, aware of his reputation and unconvinced by his general character, recommended that Hamilton's gun licence not be renewed he was over ruled by a high ranking officer.

The reasons for this decision were never made clear even after an inquiry, although the fact Hamilton seemed to have led a charmed life in terms of his behaviour over a number of years did emerge. There is ample evidence that he was being handled with kid gloves by the local police. However the police themselves may have been under pressure to adopt this policy. The MP for Dunblane was Michael Forsyth, at that time the Conservative government's senior man in Scotland, and he was known to have written letters in support of Hamilton when local amenities were being denied. To add to the mix 'Bomber' George Robertson, later head of NATO and a senior Labour figure at the time, lived in Dunblane and had been approached by Hamilton on occasion. On the day of the massacre these two political opponents stood in front of TV cameras like Siamese twins to offer their prayers and sympathy to the victims. Perhaps they were simply sharing common decency on an issue that seemed to transcend politics. Or perhaps not.

It is widely believed that Thomas Hamilton, like his grandfather, was a Freemason. It would be remarkable if George Robertson, son of a policeman from an island community and later head of NATO, was not a Freemason. Ditto for Michael Forsyth. And the inquiry into the Dunblane massacre was chaired by Lord Cullen, himself a Freemason. George Robertson was for several years the MP for the Hamilton constituency.