zodiac

[Abby Normal]

Hey Ms D, yeah,let's get back to Zodiac.

I can only echo what Abby has said above.

There is no definitive book on the topic.
Graysmith gives a good overview of the case, and his book is certainly readable, but he does play fast and loose with some facts.
Check out my post #29 on this thread which gives a link to a rebuttal of Graysmith's many porkies.
Take the time to wander through the whole website, it's a fascinating and well presented analysis of the case.

There are 2 books on the Zodiac case that you might want to consider.
I attach links to them on Amazon below.
It would be interesting to know what you think of the Zodiac case/suspects once you get up to speed on it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

yes thanks forposting these barn. Illprobably be getting the trilogy one in the near future.

[barnflatwyngarde]

yes thanks forposting these barn. Illprobably be getting the trilogy one in the near future.

Abby, I've read the first two Mark Hewitt books and thoroughly enjoyed them.
I didn't bother with the last one because he identifies Zodiac as someone who I just think is a non-starter.
No spoilers here.

[Observer]

hey obs
yeah after a quick perusal of the case to me it looks like tobin is a pretty strong suspect. a known serial killer of women who raped and murdered women in a similar fashion who was there at the time and known to frequent that ballroom. however langford apparently strongly denies tobin was the man in the taxi with them which is problematic, but after so much time has passed perhaps she was simply mistaken. out of all the known suspects i would go with tobin at this point.

Hi AN

Yes Tobin fits the bill. I'd say he's similar with regard to circumstantial evidence that ALA is to the Zodiac case

[Observer]

Ok!

To bring things back to the Zodiac.....

I've seen the Jake Gyllenhaal film, but that's the sum total of my "knowledge" of this case.

This thread has rather piqued my interest.

Is there a good general book on the case (kind of a Sugden or Begg: The Facts equivalent) that anyone would recommend?

Or a documentary which gives a good overview?

Any recommendations appreciated!

Hi Ms Diddles.

Check out Tom Voigt's Zodiackiller web site. Wealth of information there.

[Astatine211]

I think there is definitely a chance lesser known suspect Fred Manalli is involved in the Zodiac case due to his handwriting being identical to the Zodiacs and the newspaper advert which occurred the next day after his "death" which was more likely a suicide. The blog link shows comparison of the handwriting.
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com...he-is.html?m=1

[Astatine211]

Also I believe Cheri Jo Bates wasn't a zodiac victim and was either murdered by Ross Sullivan or "Bob Bennett" or BB friend. The only reason she's still a zodiac suspect is because Riverside P.D are extremely incompetent and corrupt even today. If an actual police department was on her case she would've never been a zodiac suspect.

Likewise, I'm confident in the fact Donna Lass and Kathleen John's has nothing to do with the Zodiac either and they were both victim and potential victim of Larry Kane who had just recently murdered Dana Lull. Likewise Donna Lass would still be alive and the attack on Kathleen Jones would've never happened if it wasn't for police incompetence since the police messed up the evidence on the Dana Lull murder allowing Kane to walk away on a technicality.

The only reason the Zodiac claimed their murders was so he could further increase his tally as imo his whole objective was to embarrass the police which is why if he is still alive he was able to stop killing so easily because it wasn't the murders themselves he wanted it was to make the police look like fools. In a sadly ironic way he succeeded and proved his point by never being caught.

I know I've gone off on a tangent but it's like when three police officers handed a 14 year old boy back to Dharmer just because he was an immigrant and they thought he was gay. The boy was subsequently abused and dismembered. The leading police officer out of the three and the one who made the decision was later made chief of police.

It saddens me cause I feel like so many of these unsolved cases would be solved or at least much clearer or closer if there was less corruption, prejudice and incompetence in the police across the world. I sometimes wonder if JtR might've been caught if there weren't so focused on him being a Jew. Likewise I find it insight into the perspective of the detectives how if you look at the MM you've got a Polish Jew, a homosexual man and an russian immigrant yet the entire MM was potentially written to divert attention away from a police superintendents son. Each one of the three names belonged to a group facing prejudice in London at the time. To me that shows the bias in the police which could've easily let Jack get away.

Sorry for the tangent.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles.

Check out Tom Voigt's Zodiackiller web site. Wealth of information there.

Thanks Observer! I'll check that out.....

[Ms Diddles]

I'm a total noobie to this case, so unlikely to have any profound revelations after reading a couple of books, but you never know!

Maybe it will spark my latent Miss Marple!!!

Hey Ms D, it's exactly because your new to the case that you'll probably be able to bring some fresh insight to the case.
We can all get bogged down in the minutiae, so we all need "newbies" to bring new perspectives to it.

Good luck with the assignments.

Hi Barn / Abby,

Thanks for the tips.

I have now read Graysmith and Hewitt and checked out the Zodiac Killer website and Wiki pages.

The Korsgaard book was out of stock when I first looked at it, after which the paperback appeared for £177, which I thought somewhat excessive!!

A hardback version has now appeared for £21, so that's on order.

You guys are quite right. It is a fascinating case.

Naturally, I would love to say that I read the books, sat back Poirot-like, processed all the information and can now assert with absolute authority whodunnit.

You will be unsurprised to learn that this is categorically not the case!

Purely based on a noobies first impressions, my interest was piqued by the curly haired stocky guy who attended Darlene Ferrin's painting party, and was asking around about her in Terry's diner.

He's kind of like this cases blotchy guy with carroty moustache!

It seems that of all the victims, Darlene led the most high-risk lifestyle.

Graysmith asserts that when Darlene collected Mike from his house, they were immediately followed.

If that's the case, my first thought was that Darlene may have known her killer, and this may be the only murder in the series that was personal.


This is likely where someone better versed in this case pops up to inform me that curly haired, stocky guy was identified and eliminated from enquiries decades ago!!


I also think a link to the military is a possibility.

Personally I see Zodiac as one of those weird guys who perhaps tried out for the military and was rejected on (mental?) health grounds, but retains a fixation with all things military, or else perhaps he was briefly in the military but was discharged for whatever reason.

I'd say that the tone of the letters may be indicative of some kind of Personality Disorder.

Anyway, all of this is pure, unabashed conjecture but since you had asked for first impressions, those were my initial thoughts.......

[Abby Normal]

Hi Barn / Abby,

Thanks for the tips.

I have now read Graysmith and Hewitt and checked out the Zodiac Killer website and Wiki pages.

The Korsgaard book was out of stock when I first looked at it, after which the paperback appeared for £177, which I thought somewhat excessive!!

A hardback version has now appeared for £21, so that's on order.

You guys are quite right. It is a fascinating case.

Naturally, I would love to say that I read the books, sat back Poirot-like, processed all the information and can now assert with absolute authority whodunnit.

You will be unsurprised to learn that this is categorically not the case!

Purely based on a noobies first impressions, my interest was piqued by the curly haired stocky guy who attended Darlene Ferrin's painting party, and was asking around about her in Terry's diner.

He's kind of like this cases blotchy guy with carroty moustache!

It seems that of all the victims, Darlene led the most high-risk lifestyle.

Graysmith asserts that when Darlene collected Mike from his house, they were immediately followed.

If that's the case, my first thought was that Darlene may have known her killer, and this may be the only murder in the series that was personal.


This is likely where someone better versed in this case pops up to inform me that curly haired, stocky guy was identified and eliminated from enquiries decades ago!!


I also think a link to the military is a possibility.

Personally I see Zodiac as one of those weird guys who perhaps tried out for the military and was rejected on (mental?) health grounds, but retains a fixation with all things military, or else perhaps he was briefly in the military but was discharged for whatever reason.

I'd say that the tone of the letters may be indicative of some kind of Personality Disorder.

Anyway, all of this is pure, unabashed conjecture but since you had asked for first impressions, those were my initial thoughts.......

hi diddles
that curly haired man may have been lawrence Kane, a major suspect. his picture was ided by a policeman and also a possible victim as the zodiac. strangely ferrins boyfriend, mike mageau, who survived the attack, went with arthur allen as the man who shot them. however, hartnell who survived the lake berryssa attack, said he could see a lock of greasy brown hair inside the zodiacs mask, which definitely fits kanes hair, but not really allens! another however, a brown wig was found among allens possessions when his house was searched. !?!!? its such a wacky case.

however, im pretty convinced it was Allen. he was first brought to police attention and interviewed early in the case when he was apparently spotted around lake berryssa during that attack. he later came again to police attention when two people came forward and told police that he had basically confessed.he was former navy (ciphers)and theres a boatload of other stuff that point in his direction too, but apparently none of the handwriting, prints or dna matches him.

i think if it wasnt him itcould be kane. or ross sullivan. like i said very bizzare case that has more twists and turns than a roller coaster.

[Ms Diddles]

hi diddles
that curly haired man may have been lawrence Kane, a major suspect. his picture was ided by a policeman and also a possible victim as the zodiac. strangely ferrins boyfriend, mike mageau, who survived the attack, went with arthur allen as the man who shot them. however, hartnell who survived the lake berryssa attack, said he could see a lock of greasy brown hair inside the zodiacs mask, which definitely fits kanes hair, but not really allens! another however, a brown wig was found among allens possessions when his house was searched. !?!!? its such a wacky case.

however, im pretty convinced it was Allen. he was first brought to police attention and interviewed early in the case when he was apparently spotted around lake berryssa during that attack. he later came again to police attention when two people came forward and told police that he had basically confessed.he was former navy (ciphers)and theres a boatload of other stuff that point in his direction too, but apparently none of the handwriting, prints or dna matches him.

i think if it wasnt him itcould be kane. or ross sullivan. like i said very bizzare case that has more twists and turns than a roller coaster.

You're right, Abby!

It really is a twisty, turny, complicated case.

Wacky is indeed the word!!

There does seem to be a lot of circumstantial evidence against Allen, but I believe the DNA wasn't a match.

I don't know if the DNA evidence was strong enough to categorically rule him out though, or whether it could have been flawed.

I didn't know that he was reportedly seen near Lake Berryessa around the time of the attack.

More reading required.....

I'm also going to check out this Lawrence Kane dude, and Ross Sullivan.......

[Abby Normal]

You're right, Abby!

It really is a twisty, turny, complicated case.

Wacky is indeed the word!!

There does seem to be a lot of circumstantial evidence against Allen, but I believe the DNA wasn't a match.

I don't know if the DNA evidence was strong enough to categorically rule him out though, or whether it could have been flawed.

I didn't know that he was reportedly seen near Lake Berryessa around the time of the attack.

More reading required.....

I'm also going to check out this Lawrence Kane dude, and Ross Sullivan.......

hi diddles
yeah im skeptical the dna they have is allens, or the prints. he could have disguised his handwriting. im not hopeful they can catch the zodiac like they did GSK. the dna to old, bad and too early in the science and like i said im not even sure its his.

wikipedia has good summary of the case, for quick look up.

heres more wackyness-a lead detective toschi got busted for forging a zodiac letter trying to make himself look good.

the wackyness of this case compares to Monster of Florence, where the main author of the book on it was accused and arrested by the italian authorities as a suspect!

[Ms Diddles]

hi diddles
yeah im skeptical the dna they have is allens, or the prints. he could have disguised his handwriting. im not hopeful they can catch the zodiac like they did GSK. the dna to old, bad and too early in the science and like i said im not even sure its his.

wikipedia has good summary of the case, for quick look up.

heres more wackyness-a lead detective toschi got busted for forging a zodiac letter trying to make himself look good.

the wackyness of this case compares to Monster of Florence, where the main author of the book on it was accused and arrested by the italian authorities as a suspect!

Hi Abby,

I read the stuff about Toschi.

You think it couldn't get any wackier, then Aldous Huxley pops up.....

It's completely surreal!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I caught the last 2 episodes of the series The Most Dangerous Animal Of All. Looks like another perfect example of someone (Gary Stewart) becoming so obsessed by a theory that he was willing to falsify evidence to prop it up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just ordered The Zodiac Revisited Part 1 by Michael Cole which has had great reviews (along with parts 2 and 3) I didn’t finish the Graysmith book although I read it a few years ago. I’ll give this one a go.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I caught the last 2 episodes of the series The Most Dangerous Animal Of All. Looks like another perfect example of someone (Gary Stewart) becoming so obsessed by a theory that he was willing to falsify evidence to prop it up.

Herlock I watched all four episodes of the documentary, and found it genuinely fascinating.

At first it appeared that it was going to be another "my dad/husband/neighbour etc, etc, etc was Zodiac."
However, halfway through episode 2 it morphed into something completely diffetrent.

What I found fascinating was the resonance it had to the Whitechapel murders, in particular how confirmation bias can totally consume some people to such a degree that they refuse, or are unable to accept any other facts or criticism which which weaken their case.