zodiac

[Abby Normal]

new thread for zodiac discussion

[Abby Normal]

observer... btw as im sure you heard one of the unsolved ciphers was recently solved. its much in the same vein as an earlier ones about having slaves in Paradice etc. interestingly it references the whole bello call in tv debacle and the zodiac says that it wasnt him on tv, which of course is true. this cipher was received after that tv program.

also on the site i posted that i belong to i had the non pleasure of an exchange or two with voight who didnt take too kindly to my idea that ALA was most likely the zodiac. hes kind of a pompous arse.imho of course.

i havent been on that site in awhile so i forget all the details. whos his favored suspect again?

[Observer]

observer... btw as im sure you heard one of the unsolved ciphers was recently solved. its much in the same vein as an earlier ones about having slaves in Paradice etc. interestingly it references the whole bello call in tv debacle and the zodiac says that it wasnt him on tv, which of course is true. this cipher was received after that tv program.

Yes AN, was aware of the solving of the cypher. It made me wonder whether Z's misspelling of "Paradice" was intended. Yes, the consensus seems to be it was not Zodiac who phoned the TV station. I was wondering whether there are any of our Casebook members who live in the Bay area? It would be interesting to hear if they have any stories to recount with regard to the Zodiac Killer.

[Abby Normal]

Yes AN, was aware of the solving of the cypher. It made me wonder whether Z's misspelling of "Paradice" was intended. Yes, the consensus seems to be it was not Zodiac who phoned the TV station. I was wondering whether there are any of our Casebook members who live in the Bay area? It would be interesting to hear if they have any stories to recount with regard to the Zodiac Killer.

hey obs.
yes it would, hopefully folks will chime in. fyi. not consensus anymore on the caller. its been proved it wasnt zodiac. they traced the call back to a mental intstitution and "sam" tirned out to be a patient there.

who do you think makes a good suspect for z?

[Observer]

observer... btw as im sure you heard one of the unsolved ciphers was recently solved. its much in the same vein as an earlier ones about having slaves in Paradice etc. interestingly it references the whole bello call in tv debacle and the zodiac says that it wasnt him on tv, which of course is true. this cipher was received after that tv program.

also on the site i posted that i belong to i had the non pleasure of an exchange or two with voight who didnt take too kindly to my idea that ALA was most likely the zodiac. hes kind of a pompous arse.imho of course.

i havent been on that site in awhile so i forget all the details. whos his favored suspect again?

I believe Tom Voigt's suspect is Richard Gaikowski (aka Dick Gyke) Yes exchanges in the Zodiac Killer forums can be a bit feisty to say the least. In my opinion both Casebook .org, and JTR Forums treat new members with infinitely more respect and patience, than the Zodiac Killer forums. You can submit a post and no one will respond. It seems you need at least a thousand posts before any of the older posters will respond to you.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The recent cracking of the Zodiac's 340 cipher surely points to someone who had at least a fairly serious interest in or skill with ciphers.
The obvious connection to be made is someone who worked with ciphers as part of their work.
Possibly armed forces, government cryptology, law enforcement etc.

The other possibility is that the killer simply was a fan of codes, puzzles and crosswords as a pastime.
If he had an interest in this type of thing, he probably had a textbook on codes and ciphers that he could refer to.
After all, isn't that what we do.............buy books of subjects that we're interested in?

Many years ago we had a book in the library I worked in about codes and ciphers.

It was a huge tome of a book, about 500 pages in length and covered all types of ciphers and codes.
It may well be that if Zodiac had a book like this in his possession, he would be able to create his own codes and ciphers.

With regard to Zodiac's propensity for quoting Gilbert and Sullivan, it may well be that he simply threw them out there as a smokescreen.
Again, a very basic book on Gilbert and Sullivan would provide the killer with all the basic info he needed to throw some musical teasers to the police.

It is interesting that apart from some vague victim and witness descriptions, plus some smudged fingerprints and some DNA that may or may not have come from the Zodiac, the only evidence the Police had was evidence that the Zodiac threw them.

• The phone call to the Police after the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Berryessa murders.
• The postcards to the media.
• The letters in code.
• The writing on Paul Stine's cab
• The distinctive Wingwalker footprints that he left at a murder site with no apparent fears that such unique footprints would lead to him.

This is an absolute doozy of a case!

[Observer]

hey obs.
yes it would, hopefully folks will chime in. fyi. not consensus anymore on the caller. its been proved it wasnt zodiac. they traced the call back to a mental intstitution and "sam" tirned out to be a patient there.

who do you think makes a good suspect for z?

Hi An

With regard to the voice heard on the TV show certainly sounded like someone who was mentally disturbed

After reading Graysmith, and some of his "evidence" I like you was convinced it was ALA. Not so much now.

It seems to me, taking into account, the telephone calls he did make, that his knowledge of the area was limited. It's possible he might not have been a native to the area. If we look at the recent capture of DeAngelo, it's apparent he moved about somewhat. I don't know why, but I get the feeling Zodiac was similar in nature. There are those who believe Zodiac was responsible for the Cherry Jo Bates murder in Riverside. If so, then that's some distance from the later murders in Vallejo, SF, and outskirts of Benicia. I don't really have a suspect to be fair

[Observer]

The recent cracking of the Zodiac's 340 cipher surely points to someone who had at least a fairly serious interest in or skill with ciphers.
The obvious connection to be made is someone who worked with ciphers as part of their work.
Possibly armed forces, government cryptology, law enforcement etc.

The other possibility is that the killer simply was a fan of codes, puzzles and crosswords as a pastime.
If he had an interest in this type of thing, he probably had a textbook on codes and ciphers that he could refer to.
After all, isn't that what we do.............buy books of subjects that we're interested in?

Many years ago we had a book in the library I worked in about codes and ciphers.

It was a huge tome of a book, about 500 pages in length and covered all types of ciphers and codes.
It may well be that if Zodiac had a book like this in his possession, he would be able to create his own codes and ciphers.

With regard to Zodiac's propensity for quoting Gilbert and Sullivan, it may well be that he simply threw them out there as a smokescreen.
Again, a very basic book on Gilbert and Sullivan would provide the killer with all the basic info he needed to throw some musical teasers to the police.

It is interesting that apart from some vague victim and witness descriptions, plus some smudged fingerprints and some DNA that may or may not have come from the Zodiac, the only evidence the Police had was evidence that the Zodiac threw them.

• The phone call to the Police after the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Berryessa murders.
• The postcards to the media.
• The letters in code.
• The writing on Paul Stine's cab
• The distinctive Wingwalker footprints that he left at a murder site with no apparent fears that such unique footprints would lead to him.

This is an absolute doozy of a case!

Yes BFN it is an absolute doozy of a case. As I said sitting closely behind JTR, and the Stripper murders. To be fair, I'm British, and biased, truth be known it's probably as good a case as the other two I mentioned.

I believe you're right to suggest both the cyphers, and the content of the letters, could have been learned from a couple of books. I believe this to be the case.

The costume he wore at Lake Berryessa was very strange, and as he intended to kill both victims, it follows that the wearing of the costume was meant for his own warped state of mind.

Going from witness statements it's apparent he was of stocky build, and had brown hair. Reference has been made that he wore "old fashioned" clothes signifying an older man

The wing walker boots, have led some to believe that he could be military. However, the boots in question were available to the public.

[Abby Normal]

I believe Tom Voigt's suspect is Richard Gaikowski (aka Dick Gyke) Yes exchanges in the Zodiac Killer forums can be a bit feisty to say the least. In my opinion both Casebook .org, and JTR Forums treat new members with infinitely more respect and patience, than the Zodiac Killer forums. You can submit a post and no one will respond. It seems you need at least a thousand posts before any of the older posters will respond to you.

yes iwent back and checked and hes conviced it was gaik. imho hes one of the weaker suspects, nothing connects him directly to the case, except i beleive the police operator who took the call from the killer after one of the murders. so, a sound witness lol. pretty weak.

this is my first post on the other site bulletting why i think ala makes a least weak suspect:




Hi
Noob here but ALA looks like a really good suspect to me:

He was in the immediate area at the time.
Incriminating evidence was found in his home.
He owned a zodiac watch.(this "coincidence" alone!)
He basically confessed to two people who confirm.
Bloody knife in car after LB incident.
He was former military.
He had a (bad)fascination with children-same as Z.
He came up as a suspect/POI twice independently by police (this is a bigee for me).
Surviving victim IDed him.(another bigee)
He fits the profile of thrill killer/"lovers lane" SK to a T. Loser, loner, no relationships with women (see Son of Sam).
He fits witness descriptions. (to add-I don't know what all this talk of he was bald-photos of him from the time frame show receding hair line with widows peak).

obviously theres more, but these are the main ones for me.

Regards to the exculpitary evidence:

The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.

as far as DNA: Too early in the science and only partial DNA found anyway. He may have been wearing gloves and or used a sponge pad for envelopes/stamps as many people do anyway. The DNA could have been anyone who ever handled those items.
DNA evidence way to weak to rule anyone out based on it IMHO.

I'm not convinced he was the Z though, at about 80%.

[Abby Normal]

The recent cracking of the Zodiac's 340 cipher surely points to someone who had at least a fairly serious interest in or skill with ciphers.
The obvious connection to be made is someone who worked with ciphers as part of their work.
Possibly armed forces, government cryptology, law enforcement etc.

The other possibility is that the killer simply was a fan of codes, puzzles and crosswords as a pastime.
If he had an interest in this type of thing, he probably had a textbook on codes and ciphers that he could refer to.
After all, isn't that what we do.............buy books of subjects that we're interested in?

Many years ago we had a book in the library I worked in about codes and ciphers.

It was a huge tome of a book, about 500 pages in length and covered all types of ciphers and codes.
It may well be that if Zodiac had a book like this in his possession, he would be able to create his own codes and ciphers.

With regard to Zodiac's propensity for quoting Gilbert and Sullivan, it may well be that he simply threw them out there as a smokescreen.
Again, a very basic book on Gilbert and Sullivan would provide the killer with all the basic info he needed to throw some musical teasers to the police.

It is interesting that apart from some vague victim and witness descriptions, plus some smudged fingerprints and some DNA that may or may not have come from the Zodiac, the only evidence the Police had was evidence that the Zodiac threw them.

• The phone call to the Police after the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Berryessa murders.
• The postcards to the media.
• The letters in code.
• The writing on Paul Stine's cab
• The distinctive Wingwalker footprints that he left at a murder site with no apparent fears that such unique footprints would lead to him.

This is an absolute doozy of a case!

hi barn
the writing was on hartnells car, not stine. there is eyewitness evidence too. the only surviving witness who saw his face was mageau at the blue rock springs attack, and he picked out Allen.

[barnflatwyngarde]

hi barn
the writing was on hartnells car, not stine. there is eyewitness evidence too. the only surviving witness who saw his face was mageau at the blue rock springs attack, and he picked out Allen.

Thanks for that correction Abby, I was writing from memory.

My recollection of Mageau's identification was that it was subsequently considered so problematic as to be virtually useless, although again, I'm remembering this without checking it out.

When it comes down to choosing whether to really concentrate on trying to crack the Zodiac case, or wallowing in a gentle whodunnit of ""McDonald and Dodds", Mr Zodiac will just have to wait until tomorrow.

Stay safe.

[Abby Normal]

what i found intersting from the recently solved cipher is that one of tje first thing the zodiac says was that guy from the tv was not me. interesting parallel to the dear boss letter where on of the first thing the writer says was leather apron was not me.

[Observer]

yes iwent back and checked and hes conviced it was gaik. imho hes one of the weaker suspects, nothing connects him directly to the case, except i beleive the police operator who took the call from the killer after one of the murders. so, a sound witness lol. pretty weak.

this is my first post on the other site bulletting why i think ala makes a least weak suspect:




Hi
Noob here but ALA looks like a really good suspect to me:

He was in the immediate area at the time.
Incriminating evidence was found in his home.
He owned a zodiac watch.(this "coincidence" alone!)
He basically confessed to two people who confirm.
Bloody knife in car after LB incident.
He was former military.
He had a (bad)fascination with children-same as Z.
He came up as a suspect/POI twice independently by police (this is a bigee for me).
Surviving victim IDed him.(another bigee)
He fits the profile of thrill killer/"lovers lane" SK to a T. Loser, loner, no relationships with women (see Son of Sam).
He fits witness descriptions. (to add-I don't know what all this talk of he was bald-photos of him from the time frame show receding hair line with widows peak).

obviously theres more, but these are the main ones for me.

Regards to the exculpitary evidence:

The zodiac was a meticulous ADA type who created complicated codes, bomb systems and letters. He said he would cover his fingertips with glue. He was seen wiping down the cab. I think its fair to assess he could(and would) also then disguise his handwriting and leave no finger prints.

as far as DNA: Too early in the science and only partial DNA found anyway. He may have been wearing gloves and or used a sponge pad for envelopes/stamps as many people do anyway. The DNA could have been anyone who ever handled those items.
DNA evidence way to weak to rule anyone out based on it IMHO.

I'm not convinced he was the Z though, at about 80%.

Hi AN

To which incriminatory evidence do refer which was found at ALA's house?

Guns were found, non matched the ballistics of Zodiac Killers weapons.

The Zodiac watch in my opinion was one of those huge coincidences which crop up now and then, nothing more.

His hand writing did not match any of the Zodiac correspondence. Neither did his fingerprints match those found on the Stine cab, nor the palm print on the Exorcist letter.

Hartnell noticed that Zodiac had brown hair, considering that he had on a hood at the time, I'd say ALA who's hair was receding at the time of the Lake Berryessa murder could not have provided Hartnell a glimpse of his hair.

None of the DNA they do have matched ALA

LE were desperate to apprehend Zodiac, ALA was certainly on their radar, I believe it speaks volumes he faded from their investigation

[Observer]

what i found intersting from the recently solved cipher is that one of tje first thing the zodiac says was that guy from the tv was not me. interesting parallel to the dear boss letter where on of the first thing the writer says was leather apron was not me.

The intentional misspelling of the letters, I'm sure Zodiac wasn't as illiterate as the letters imply, mirrors certain Ripper letters. I'm sure it's just coincidence though.

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN

To which incriminatory evidence do refer which was found at ALA's house?

Guns were found, non matched the ballistics of Zodiac Killers weapons.

The Zodiac watch in my opinion was one of those huge coincidences which crop up now and then, nothing more.

His hand writing did not match any of the Zodiac correspondence. Neither did his fingerprints match those found on the Stine cab, nor the palm print on the Exorcist letter.

Hartnell noticed that Zodiac had brown hair, considering that he had on a hood at the time, I'd say ALA who's hair was receding at the time of the Lake Berryessa murder could not have provided Hartnell a glimpse of his hair.

None of the DNA they do have matched ALA

LE were desperate to apprehend Zodiac, ALA was certainly on their radar, I believe it speaks volumes he faded from their investigation

hi obs

the main thing found at his house that was the exact same type of typewriter that the killer of bates used. also i beleive they found a hoard of weapons, bomb making stuff and wigs and disguises. im going off memory though because i havent really thought about the zodiac case in quite some time.

yes hartnell said he saw a shock of brown greasy hair underneath the mask. but the z was wearing sunglasses over his eye openings so that has been questioned as how he could have seen hair.but even if he did its such a insignificant detail and some have posited that z was wearing a wig underneath rhe hood/ mask.

re the forensic stuff, i pretty much already gave my thoughts on that in the previous post.

many of the police who investigated thiught allen was the best suspect. the problem is there just not enough evidence to charge and convict.

as i said im not 100 percent sure it was allen, just that i lean heavily he was and think hes the best suspect. that being said i think a handful of the other main suspects look intriguing too.