When Flying Saucers Attack!

[Doctor X]

I am not counting the previous early attempts at creating parties. Technically, only Washington did not have a party though the Federalists claimed him in his second term to my recollection.

Now . . . whatever happened to the Free Soil Party?



--J.D.

[sdreid]

Few Vice Presidents amounted to much if they went on to become President, that is, not the ones who ran with a President on a national ticket.

I wonder if you asked a group of historians who the best Vice President was who never became President, who they'd say.

[plang]

Forefathers...forefathers... forefathers... forget about it, move on, Get over it.

George Washington is not what most of you seem to think he was.etc.

[Doctor X]

Few Vice Presidents amounted to much if they went on to become President, that is, not the ones who ran with a President on a national ticket.

FDR's Vice President for his first two terms--who expected FDR to step away after the first, I believe--described it as "not worth a warm bucket of p-iss."

The history books often quote it as "spit," but the actual quote was "p-iss." This probably describes his temperament when he left and FDR died early into his fourth term making Truman President.

There are significant exceptions to your premise: successful Presidents who were once Vice-Presidents include:

Thomas Jefferson--Founding Father. They have their own parking spaces.

Chester Arthur--bit of a surprise there.

Theodore Roosevelt--one of the most successful Presidents. Granted, critics claimed he "took the veil" of VP at the time. The chairman of the Republican Party is the one, I believe, who coined the term "heart beat away" from the Presidency.

Calvin Coolidge--well regarded at his time. Sort of the Bill Clinton of the early twentieth century.

Lyndon Johnson--controversial, of course.

Richard Nixon--controversial . . . of course

Gerald Ford--he kept everything together and, yes, he was right to pardon Nixon. Was a better President than Carter [Stop that!--Ed.] Okay . . . okay. . . .

George Bush--controversial.

This may depend on how one looks at "successful." Nixon did a lot a great things . . . wiped out by Watergate. Even his greatest apologist has to mumble. Chester Arthur was suppose to be a corrupt yes-man who, strangely--became a reformer. Jefferson made a lot of very bad descisions . . . a lot of very good decisions, but he gets major "Founding Father" points. He is also the first President to defeat a sitting President, and no one got executed!

Theodore Roosevelt is Theodore Roosevelt. Should have remained President. His handling of WWI over the dishrag hypocrite Wilson would have been "interesting" and is for historical fiction to sort out.

As with Nixon, Johnson did a lot of great things . . . and a lot of questionable things. The historical jury is still out on him, but he was successful in a number of areas. As was George Bush, but he is too "fresh" and the politics are too raw . . . Bill Clinton is not the Anti-Christ either! Similarly Ford. He followed disaster, but prevented the Presidency from being crippled as it was, frankly, after Andrew Johnson imploded. He may not have been convicted . . . but he became irrelevant. He is not on My List [Tm.--Ed.]

Ford's currency has risen a bit. Many who hated him for pardoning Nixon have come around to realize it was better to just send Nixon into humiliation. There was "no deal"--Nixon was going to be impeached and would have been convicted. That point--when enough Republican Senators made it clear that they would not try to prevent conviction in the Senate--was what drove Nixon to resign rather than face the double indignity of Impeachment and Conviction.

For Ye Furiners reading, they are two separate processes.

I wonder if you asked a group of historians who the best Vice President was who never became President, who they'd say.

Depends on what one defines as "best." In a way, it will always be John Adams, though he became a "not-terribly good" President. Sure, he suffered from following George Washington who was not only a mythic figure but, actually, a good President. Adams also cocked up a few things . . . like that Alien Sedition Act. However, he carved out a role--small one--for the Vice President.

Vice Presidents have always been "tolerated." They have little use until something bad happens. Traditionally, they were not chosen to follow but balance a ticket a bit--put someone semi-important in a useless job. Hence the "taking the veil" remark regarding Theodore Roosevelt: critics felt this would put him away for good.

Eisenhower despised Nixon and ignored him. Kennedy and Johnson mutually despised one another.

It is not until recent times that Vice-Presidents have been chosen for something other than "balance" or whathaveyou. There was talk to make Gerald Ford Reagan's Vice-President. Wrap you mind around that, historically. Ford wanted far more influence than a Vice-President should have--a sort of "co-Presidency." Reagan wisely told him to stuff it. Early in history, that sort of problem rose when the Vice-President was the "runner up" in a Presidential election. This did no work out well.

Reagan chose rival George Bush, and Bush had some influence. He had "things to do." Gore was a political choice on the part of Clinton--they never got along--and certainly do not now! Cheney was chosen as an adviser.

We will take the back and forth of "Adviser versus Evil Emperor" as "read!"

The choices of Vice-President tend to always be political; Cheney may be the only one chosen for "advice" and not to make "the ticket look good" or shut someone up. Bush was chosen to get his supporters. Ferraro for, frankly, being female. Did not work. Gore for his supporters. Edward clearly for his looks which, for some reason, attracted people who did not actually know him. He also needed a job since he could not get re-elected in his own state. For me, he is the most curious choice for a Vice-Presidential candidate . . .

. . .

. . . wait for it . . .


. . . other than Dan Quayle. I do not think anyone knows why Bush chose Quayle. "Youth" perhaps? Bush probably thought he would score points with "those teenie-boppers" who listen "to that rock and roll" and "go to Church a lot"--as in no one! Of course, once he chose him he was stuck with him!

Now the choices for the Current Ruinous Band will be very interesting.

[He then launches in to a tedious analysis of potential running mates. Since he claimed he enjoyed this board since he could avoid religion and politics, we felt it best to end it.--Ed.]

--J.D.

[sdreid]

Teddy would be the major exception. It was a different deal when Adams and Jefferson moved up.

[Doctor X]

Only because Mondale, Bush, Nixon, and Gore ran, with Truman and Johnson in "recent memory" has the Vice President been seen as a "stepping stone" to the Presidency. As remarked when Bush became President, the last sitting Vice President to make it was Martin Van "Van! Is a Used-Up Man!" Buren.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

--J.D.

[Mayerling]

Veeps

Hi all,

My all time favorite Veep is a toss-up between Tom Marshall (he was the wittiest Vice President, and one of the nicest) and Charles Dawes (Silent Cal's Veep). Dawes, a Chicago Banker, helped organize the financing of our armed forces in World War I, and did not like being questioned about not being a better "bean counter". During a Congressional Committee in the early 1920s, Dawes exploded with the sentence, "Hell and Maria, we weren't trying to keep a set of books, we were trying to win a war!". After that he was "Hell and Maria" Dawes.

He was an interesting man - he loved music and composed for the piano.
He also (as a banker and government advisor) tried to help Weimar Germany repay it's war debts with the "Dawes Plan. As a result, he became the second U.S. Vice President (T.R. was first - though technically not while sitting as Vice President) to win the Nobel Peace Prize. After serving as Veep for Calvin, he was ambassador to Great Britain for awhile.

Dawes died in 1951. Shortly afterwards, a tune based on one of his melodies became a popular standard: "It's All In the Game".

I like Chet Arthur too (as well as Coolidge). The former turned out to be determined to serve the nation well as President (which was the second elected position Arthur got - and he was not elected to it). He was aware of an unfair scandal against him as Collector of the Port of New York Customs House. Arthur was a leading aide to Senator Roscoe Conkling's Republican Machine in New York City, and was appointed to head the Customs House. Actually Arthur was such a good appointee he reduced cost overheads...but most of the posts in the customs house were appointed ones, and his predecessor (Tom Murphy) had been an incompetent crook. President Rutherford Hayes had an investigation of the Customs House, and came to the conclusion that Arthur was to blame...and removed him. Thus, when Arthur was approached by the Republicans to run as Vice President with Garfield in 1880 he jumped at the chance to do so. Conkling (who hated Garfield and his friend James G. Blaine) was against the nomination, but Arthur insisted on taking it. Later, when Garfield was shot by Charles Guiteau (who claimed to be a supporter of Conkling, and boasted, "Now Arthur is President"), Arthur was determined to destroy the corrupt image of the past associated with him. He supported the Pendleton Civil Service Act of 1883 as a monument to his martyred predecessor. He rebuilt the U.S. Navy with it's first steam driven battleships since the Monitors of the Civil War. He tried to veto the harbor and rivers pork-barrel bill (unfortunately it was passed over his veto). He also added real class to the White House, having Louis Tiffany redecorate it, and being our most clothing conscious President. He nearly got the 1884 nomination, but it has recently been discovered that he was aware he was fatally ill with Bright's disease, and did not push as hard as his supporters would have liked. He left in March 1885, widely respected for his good work as President, and died in November 1886.
His home in Manhattan is still standing - unfortunately nobody has seen fit to try to buy it and the block of townhouses around it in the East 20s on Lexington Avenue for an Arthur museum (possibly connected with the history of Civil Service reform). Some people have claimed that a top-hatted ghost of Arthur's is seen in the area at night.

Coolidge is also underated - the comparison with Bill Clinton is apt, although Clinton is a bit more open as a personality than Silent Cal was. Coolidge had a dry wit which crops up. He also was personally honest, and rebuilt public confidence in the White House after the scandals of the Harding administration (ironically, Coolidge was not touched by Teapot Dome and the other scandals because Harding had no time for him as an advisor - in fact he probably would have dropped Coolidge as a running mate in 1924.

Coolidge is one of the few politicians who gained the Vice Presidency by popular demand. In 1920 many Republican delegates were furious at Harding's last minute selection by party bosses in a deadlocked convention.
Coolidge had been a favorite son from Massachusetts (due to his breaking the Boston Police Strike...or seeming to do so). The bosses wanted Wisconsin Senator Irvine Lenroot - a colorless nonentity - for the Vice Presidency, and were surprised when Coolidge was the choice by acclimation.
Sometime the public is heard at conventions.

Coolidge has had bad press over the years for being too conservative, and not good with preventing the great depression. Actually the historians who jumped on him were mostly Democrats, and fans of Franklin Roosevelt (whom Coolidge, by the way, defeated for Vice President in 1920 - the only National election that FDR was on a ticket that lost). But actually, although FDR gets high credit marks for trying to solve the depression by his New Deal, he didn't succeed. In fact, to this day, there is serious questions about whether the Keynsian theories that FDR's advisors pushed (which he barely understood) really work. Coolidge, for his time from August 1923 to March 1929, gave a pretty good account of himself in the office, vetoing some legisilation that was of questionable use for the farmers, and pushing quietly (with his Secretary of State Frank Kellogg) for participation in the World Court and for the Kellogg-Briand Pact outlawing war (which earned Kellogg and Aristide Briand of France a joint Nobel Peace Prize). The Coolidge critics jeer at this pact as being meaningless but it is not - it is the basis of the war crimes trials following World War II at Nuremburg and Tokyo.

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Doctor X]

Total agreement, Mayerling.

Kudos!

--J.D.

[Mike Covell]

Sorry to interject in this intresting discussion on the forefathers of your country.

Last night I recorded a 2 hour show with Humberside Paranormal Radio which went on air globally!

We discussed the ripper, my research, and my work in the paranormal field here in Hull.

They hosts were so impressed by my knowledge of Hull, it's hauntings and the ripper they have asked me to do a show once a month!!

Back to the Presidents.....

[Doctor X]

We do not mind if the Colonists speak up occasionally . . .

. . . provided you remember your "place."









--J.D.

[sdreid]

Good going Mike on that and the Ripperologist article. Where's your picture? When I had an article in there, they told me I had to provide a picture to head the work.

I guess Burr would probably be the most controversial VP.

[Doctor X]

I guess Burr would probably be the most controversial VP.

Possibly--definitely by accumulation. Spiro T. Agnew had to resign for corruption. Burr? Thomas Jefferson demanded he be convicted of treason!

So, you are probably correct! Definitely while he was Vice President.

--J. "Aaawon Burr!" D.

[Mike Covell]

Good going Mike on that and the Ripperologist article. Where's your picture? When I had an article in there, they told me I had to provide a picture to head the work.

I guess Burr would probably be the most controversial VP.

Picture?

As in my mugshot?

I had the webcam on once during a conversation of Jonathon Menges, I believe he is still having nightmares now!

Glad you liked the article, thanks for the kind words.

[Celesta]

Sorry to interject in this intresting discussion on the forefathers of your country.

Last night I recorded a 2 hour show with Humberside Paranormal Radio which went on air globally!

We discussed the ripper, my research, and my work in the paranormal field here in Hull.

They hosts were so impressed by my knowledge of Hull, it's hauntings and the ripper they have asked me to do a show once a month!!

Back to the Presidents.....

Congrats, Mike! This is very good. I'm happy for you.

How's Spot?

[Mike Covell]

I believe the trauma of Spot's first day in our mad house has effected him.

He has a lovely blue hamster wheel, but unlike most hamsters who enter the wheel to run, he climbs on top and sits looking out over his domain!!

He has become very tame, and my fear of hamsters have vanished, were like best friends!!

We have the two rabbits now too, which are very tame and great fun, when I open the door they come running!

The kids love them, but they eat and drink so much!