JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Fiver]

The video corroborates his testimony. Much of the main evidence against Oswald was never positively identified by the person who found it. This includes the four Tippit shells, the three shells found on the sixth floor, the "stretcher bullet" CE 399, the "tannish-grey" jacket and the C 2766 rifle.

This has been answered before.

The rifle was seen by multiple people, photographed, and marked.

The jacket was observed by several people before it was picked up.

We have the chain of custody for the stretcher bullet.

The three TSBD shells were seen by multiple people, photographed and marked.

The four Tippet bullet shells were seen by multiple people.

[Fiver]

Without these positive identifications, the prosecution's case is weakened because it cannot prove that the items currently in evidence are the same items the witnesses found.

And the fact that all of these same items were also originally described as something else, not only makes positive identification by the finder imperative, it leaves open the possibility that there was evidence tampering by authorities and that the items in evidence may have been substituted for the items originally found.

How do we explain five main pieces of evidence, found in different locations and at different times, and all originally described as something else, not positively identified by the people who found them ?

* The TBSD rifle was mistaken for a Mauser by some of the people present. It was marked and photographed on site, so it is provably the same rifle that was found.

* The jacket was never described as something else. It was seen by several people and positively identified by the man who picked it up.

* The stretcher bullet was never misidentified. It did pass through several hands before it was marked. Neutron scanning proved that bullet fragments in Connally's wrist came from the stretcher bullet.

* The three TSBD shells were not described as something else by anyone. They were marked and photographed on site, so they are provably the same shells.

* The three Tippet shells were not described as something else by anyone who had physical possession of them. They were marked by the police.

Your source claims that all of the items were originally described as something else. This is provably false.

Your source claims that all of the items were not positively identified by the people that found them. This is provably false.

Your source deliberately ignores the testimony of most eyewitnesses, the photographic evidence, the items being marked by the police, and the ballistics evidence.

And that's before we consider that a competent Conspiracy would plant the right rifle, the right jacket, the right expended shells, and the right bullet in the frst place.

Who's running this Conspiracy - Moe, Larry, and Curly?

[Fiver]

Fiver - Google. Jim Garrison January 31 1969 appeal for xrays and photos. I found it under Hood College.Edu

Thanks. Google is not as good at finding pdfs.

Here are Garrison's pleadings.

I find it amusing that it says Dr McClelland said that "the cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from gunshot wound of the left temple. (Whereas the Warren Report specifies the right side.)"

So Garrison bases his claim on the only doctor to claim the bullet hit the left side and misidentifies where the Warren Commission said the bullet struck.

And here's an article on Garrison being denied the xrays and photos.

[Fiver]

Specter confessed to Epstein. But apparently Epstein did not want to reveal it until after Specter was dead. It does not get any worse than this.

Edward Epstein was an early critic of the Warren Commission. He is not the first to wait until after a supporter of the Warren Commission was dead to claim the dead person said something that undermined or even denied things the person had said while they were alive.

[Patrick Differ]

Fiver with all due respect you are cherry picking information McClelland later clarified what he said and you would know that if you continued to research the full extent of the Garrison Appeal.
The Zapruder Film clearly shows a massive Temple wound. You can argue that its an exit wound but none of the Doctors at Parkland called it that.
The exit wound drawings that came out of the Bethesda Autopsy drawings ( not sketches) are where an exit wound is first declared. However, that is clearly disputed in the Garrison appeal. But it does help the case against- one shooter from behind.
There are clearly 2 factions on this post. One that is willing to believe what a government tells it, and the other that has doubt and believes truth and justice has not been served.

For those of us that have read most of the Warren Report - it's all online with all 1555 Exhibits, the contradictions are overwhelming. What is clear and beyond no doubt whatsoever, is that Oswald was always the " suspect". The Warren Commission spends its entire effort on Oswald and his ties to the Soviet Union to build their narrative.

Since the investigation was orchestrated by Hoover and his FBI, and who had Oswald on their radar to the point of perceived harassment, is there any wonder that this was the course taken? It was convenient and expedient.

Unfortunately one outcome was Conspiracy Theories. I say unfortunate because it just hurt trust in government for the next 60 plus years.

The investigation hinges on only 6 seconds of photographic evidence along with Xrays and Photographs. Has anyone ever seen xrays or Photographs of the " Front" of Kennedys body?
Why would that matter?

I retire to Bedlam...

[Fiver]

Anyone have a chance to look at the Jim Garrison appeals request to DC court for xrays and photographs? January 31,1969.

I am finding it difficult to find WC Exhibit 392 which should be the hand written Admission Note by Dr Robert McClelland of Parkland. In that document the cause of death is stated as a fatal headshot to the Temple. It shows up the Garrison request and validated by its author.

In WC Volume XVII pages 11 & 12 Exhibit 392 shows up as a typed document that does not reflect the hand written document. The Secret Service could not take the body unless the President was declared death. I will go through and see if the hand written document is mislabeled. So far I have not found it.

By his own testimony, Dr McClelland did not admit JFK to Parkland. JFK was declared dead by Dr Clark, not Dr McClelland. Dr Clark also filled out the death certificate.

[Fiver]

And yet you were showed how it was done , and couldn't disprove it . Just your running commentary reply which means nothing .

You cannot change the laws of physics.

Switching caskets would require actual magic. Either the body has to be transferred between airplanes in mid-flight without anyone noticing or you need a second body close enough to JFK's body that it will fool x-rays and dental records.

[c.d.]

There are clearly 2 factions on this post. One that is willing to believe what a government tells it, and the other that has doubt and believes truth and justice has not been served.

Well to be fair, do they believe it solely because it comes from the government or because they think it is correct? Big difference.

And is it possible that those who don't believe the Warren Report do so because they want to see themselves as rebels, their own man, free thinkers if you will?

That argument can go both ways. Just sayin'.

c.d.

[Fiver]

Hume said the back wound did not transit the body.

That is definitely not what Dr Humes said.

"A. My problem is, very simply stated, we had an entrance wound high in the posterior back above the scapula. We didn't know where the exit wound was at that point. I'd be the first one to admit it. We knew in general in the past that we should have been more prescient than we were, I must confess, because when we removed the breast plate and examined the thoracic cavity, we saw a contusion on the upper lobe of the lung. There was no defect in the pleura anyplace. So it's obvious that the missile had gone over that top of the lung.
Of course, the more I thought about it, the more I realized it had to go out from the neck.

It was the only place it could go, after it was not found anywhere in the X-rays. So early the next morning, I called Parkland Hospital and talked with Malcolm Perry, I guess it was. And he said, Oh, yeah, there was a wound right in the middle of the neck by the tie, and we used that for the tracheotomy. Well, they obliterated, literally obliterated--when we went back to the photographs, we thought we might have seen some indication of the edge of that wound in the gaping skin where the--but it wouldn't make a great deal of sense to go slashing open the neck. What would we learn?"

[Patrick Differ]

Fiver did you not see the Admission Note signed by Dr McClelland in his own handwriting in the Appeal submittal? I never said McClelland admitted Kennedy as he came in after Perry and Cirrico were there. He did however craft the Admission Note and stated Cause of Death! Massive wound to head. Compare that to Warren Commission evidence from Humes on Cause of death. " Gunshot wound to head".

The Admission Note does not show up in the WC exhibits. Likely because it mentions a shot to the Temple? But yet pictures of Oswalds Pubic hair and all sorts of irrelevant exhibits do.

[Fiver]

There are clearly 2 factions on this post. One that is willing to believe what a government tells it, and the other that has doubt and believes truth and justice has not been served.

The government is not a monolithic hivemind. It is composed of multiple organizations with different goals, at times competing goals. Those organizations are composed of individuals with personal goals. That's before we consider that any large enough organization will have competing internal factions. One side of the debate accepts this.

Humans have imperfect memories and perception. People can misspeak, mistype, and miswrite. Contradictions are not proof of lying. Contradictions are not proof of a conspiracy. One side of the debate accepts this.

Forging x-rays, ballistics, and photographic evidence that will fool forensic techniques that hadn't been invented yet is impossible. One side of the debate accepts this.

Conspiracies exist. Sane conspiracies require credible motives that outweigh the risks of failure. Smart conspiracies minimize the people involved. Smart conspiracies don't require the help of rival organizations. One side of the debate accepts this.

Oswald as a patsy is a non-starter. There are over a dozen witnesses of the Tippet shooting, none of whom were part of the government. It would require the Dallas Police Department to set up and murder one of their own members. None of the civilians or police involved would gain anything from Tippit's murder.

So if there was a conspiracy, Oswald would be part of it. I won't rule out that Oswald had a few of supporters that chickened out or failed, but so far no evidence has been shown that they exist.

[Patrick Differ]

Dr. Clark was mentioned here and he describes Kennedys head wound as tangential. He goes in great detail to say it was not a pass through as the WC sketch from Bethesda shows.

[Fiver]

Dr. Clark was mentioned here and he describes Kennedys head wound as tangential. He goes in great detail to say it was not a pass through as the WC sketch from Bethesda shows.

Mr. SPECTER - What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?
Dr. CLARK - As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being---striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?
Dr. CLARK - Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile---
Mr. SPECTER - May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking. Go ahead, Doctor.
Dr. CLARK - The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.
Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?
Dr. CLARK - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?
Dr. CLARK - I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come. I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

[Fiver]

Fiver did you not see the Admission Note signed by Dr McClelland in his own handwriting in the Appeal submittal?

I stopped when I git to the part where it claims that Dr McClelland said "the cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from gunshot wound of the left temple. (Whereas the Warren Report specifies the right side.)"

If JFK was shot in the left temple then every witness from Parkland, including Dr. McClelland, lied to the Warren Commission.

If the first look at the apple shows that it's rotten, why bite into it hoping that some of it is edible?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Dr. Robert McClelland is an absolute favourite of conspiracy theorists (along with anyone others at Parkland who mistakenly estimated the location of Kennedy’s head wound. According to CT’s it’s impossible for them to have been mistaken - although it’s considered ‘proven’ that those who located it correctly were mistaken…strange?) Let’s take a closer look at Dr. McClelland.

The first point worth mentioning is that Dr. McClelland was a conspiracy theorist who we know, at least at some point, believed that the Mafia killed Kennedy. This fact has to be born in mind due the possibility of confirmation bias and an ensuing refusal to admit even the possibility of error.

The next is more important. He believes that the fatal head shot came from the Grassy Knoll (not a medical opinion) and that the bullet blew out the back of Kennedy’s head. But…and this is a BUT…he doesn’t believe that the Autopsy photos were faked and he doesn’t believe that the Autopsy Pathologists were dishonest…work that one out!

Let’s make the conspiracy theorists happy and quote from Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi (don’t worry, it uses McClelland’s actual words)”

“ When I spoke over the telephone to Dr. McClelland in late September and early October of 2002, McClelland, a respected Dallas surgeon whom no one accuses of trying to deliberately mislead anyone, only of being completely wrong in what he thought he saw (the most honest people in the world can think they saw the darnedest things), said he was positive the president had a "massive hole to the back of his head."

He said at the time of his observation he was holding a metal retractor that was pulling the skin away from the president's trachea so Drs. Perry and Carrico could perform their tracheotomy. "I had nothing else to do or to distract me so I fixated on this large, gaping hole to the back of the president's head for ten to twelve minutes."

When I wondered how he could see the large hole when the president was always lying on his back, he said the wound was so large that he nevertheless could see "most of it." If what he said was true, I asked, how is it possible that on the Zapruder film itself, the explosion is clearly to the right frontal portion of the president's head with a large amount of brain matter spraying out, and the back of his head appears to be completely intact?

Dr. McClelland gave an answer that deserves some type of an award for inventiveness: "What the explanation for this is, I just don't know, but what I believe happened is that the spray of brain matter and blood was kind of like a bloodscreen, similar to a smokescreen, that precluded a clear view of the occipital area."

If, I pursued the matter, the exit wound was to the back of the president's head, where was the entrance wound for this bullet? McClelland, who believes the shot to the head came from the grassy knoll, said he believed the president was struck "around the hairline near the middle of his forehead."

If that was so, I asked, how was it that seventeen pathologists, including

Dr. Wecht, all agreed that the president was only struck twice, both times from the rear, and none of them—from photographs, X-rays, and personal observation (by the three autopsy surgeons)—saw any entrance wound to the president's forehead?

Again, McClelland, who acknowledged, "I'm not a pathologist and I've never conducted an autopsy," said, "I don't know the answer to your question."But he remained sincerely inventive in his imagination. "What I believe happened is that none of the pathologists saw the entrance wound because it became a part of the destruction to the whole right side and top of the president's head. In other words, it was no longer a separate hole that could be identified."

(Of course, none of the autopsy photographs show any such massive injury to the president's forehead extending to the right side of his head, and none is referred to in the autopsy report, nor in the reports of the Clark Panel and Rockefeller Commission. As the HSCA said, "There is no evidence that the president was struck by a bullet entering the front of his head.")

"So you do acknowledge," I said, "the explosion to the right front part of the president's head?" "Oh, yes," the doctor said, "but that's not where the bullet exited. It exited in the occipital region of his head, leaving a hole so big I could put my fist in it."

When I pointed out to the doctor again that not only didn't the Zapruder film show any large hole to the back of the president's head but autopsy photographs never showed any large hole there either, he said that although it was pure "supposition" on his part, at the time the photographs were taken, someone "could have pulled a flap of the president's skin, attached to the base of his neck, forward," thereby covering the large defect. When I asked him if he saw any such loose flap of skin at Parkland, he acknowledged, "I did not."

It was getting late in the evening, Dallas time, but before I ended the interview I reminded Dr. McClelland of the fact that in his Parkland Hospital admission note at 4:45 p.m. on the day of the assassination, he had written that the president died "from a gunshot wound of the left temple." "Yes," he said, "that was a mistake. I never saw any wound to the president's left temple. Dr. Jenkins had told me there was a wound there, though he later denied telling me this."

Since there was no bullet wound to the left side of the president's body, and since the conspiracy theorists allege that Kennedy was shot from the grassy knoll to his right front, conspiracy author Robert Groden solves the problem and avoids having his star witness, Dr. McClelland, look very confused and non-credible simply by changing McClelland's words "left temple" to "right temple" in his book, The Killing of a President.

When I called Dr. McClelland the following evening to discuss further one of the points he had made, he quickly told me he was glad I had called because "since we hung up last night, I've had some second thoughts about the exact location of the exit wound."

Unlike the many conspiracy theorists who have exploited Dr. McClelland's obvious errors to their benefit, he told me, "I don't question the integrity of all the pathologists who disagree with me" (he wasn't so kind to his colleague, Dr. Charles Crenshaw: "Chuck had a lot of problems and fabricated a lot of things"), saying, for instance, that he and the three autopsy surgeons were "obviously looking at the same head and the same wound," but that the area on the head where they placed the wound differed because of "the different positions from which we viewed it and also because of the different interpretations of what we saw, which is normal."

But he made a major concession in an effort to reconcile his position with theirs. "I have to say that the sketch I first drew for Josiah Thompson's book a few years after the assassination was misleading. Since last night, I've been thinking that I placed the large hole in the president's head farther back than it really was, maybe. It may have been a bit more forward."

When I asked him where he now put it, he said, "Partially in the occipital region and partly in the right back part of the parietal bone" (which I told him was actually consistent with the original position he took in his Warren Commission testimony), but he still insisted that this large exit wound was not to the right frontal area of the president's skull as concluded by all the pathologists.

Dr. McClelland told me he believes there were two gunmen, Oswald and someone else, and further believes that "the CIA and FBI, mostly the CIA, were behind the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, and they brought in the Mafia, who carried out the killing."

He said he didn't know but suspects that "the Warren Commission covered up the conspiracy." On that note, I thanked the good doctor for his time and bid him a good night. ”

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


So let me just restate an all-time conspiracy theory CLASSIC coming from one of their absolute star witnesses: “What the explanation for this is, I just don't know, but what I believe happened is that the spray of brain matter and blood was kind of like a bloodscreen, similar to a smokescreen, that precluded a clear view of the occipital area."


A bloodscreen…A BLOODSCREEN…and this guy gets put up as proof of conspiracy! Give me a break.

………


So….could those that placed the wound to the rear of the head have been mistaken? That group of largely interns of limited experience. The group who 5 minutes earlier were eating lunch or performing everyday tasks but then found themselves trying to save the Presidents life. People in the most extreme pressure situation of their short lives. None of whom were pathologists. None of whom were focused on anything other than trying to resuscitate the President. None of whom could see much, if any, of the back of Kennedy’s head because he was lying on it and they never turned over the body. With a head that was covered in blood and gore and matted hair which would have run downward with gravity and so gathered at the area around the back of Kennedy’s head.

According to conspiracy theorist they couldn’t have been mistaken. The CT’s weren’t there but Dr. Carrico, one of the main Parkland Doctor’s was, and when he was asked if they could have been mistaken (including himself) said “Absolutely.” Why is Carrico wrong but conspiracy theorists are right? Why are those who testimony ‘support’ a front of the head shot perfectly correct and yet those that don’t (admittedly fewer but still a significant number) are assumed to have been wrong? I guess it’s like O’Connor. One man out of 32 says that the President’s brain was gone and he’s the one that gets believed.


The autopsy was clearly entirely genuine (certainly imperfect though) . The x-rays and photographs couldn’t have received greater authentication as being genuine. The Zapruder film (which conspiracy theorists are quite happy to use when it suits them [head movement] ignores the clear absence of a rear head wound.

Something like 5 or 6 Parkland doctors, 3 pathologists, confirmed later by 14 others pathologists (including conspiracy theorist Cyril Wecht) x-ray photographs scientifically confirmed as genuine, x-rays scientifically confirmed as genuine and a moving film of the head shot scientifically confirmed as unaltered versus a few largely inexperienced doctors, in a high stress situation, commenting on a part of the head that they weren’t looking at and that was largely obscured added to a few Dealey Plaza witnesses who were more keen on ducking for their lives.

It’s a joke that anyone could even suggest the latter. But they do.