JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[scottnapa]

[QUOTE=Fiver;n849764]

You repeating false statements does not make them true. The chain of custody on JFK's body was never broken.




Here you are mostly correct. Murder of JFK would only have been a federal crime if it took place on federal land. If he hadn't been murdered, Oswald would have been tried under Texas state law.

[/QUOTE
I am wondering how you interpret the chain of evidence.
I am refering to the body as evidence as it applies to a Texas trial. The body is evidence in a crime in Texas.
I am not saying there wasn't a person with the body, with the casket.None of that applies to my comment about an autopsy.
I am saying there is a very valid legal reason why DR. Rose demanded an autopsy.
This has nothing to do with switching caskets or body snatching. I am talking about TEXAS law
The WC recommend a change in federal law is proof of the validity of the this issue of legality and custody.

[scottnapa]

The questions are based on the premise that a conspiracy would have to have been organised and orchestrated by people/groups of great influence and authority (to be able to set up a dodgy autopsy, a dodgy WC, plant prints etc) as opposed to say, Oswald a three friends in a bar coming up with a ‘conspiracy.’

1. Why, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis and at a time when the government wanted to avoid any escalation with the Soviet Union and with the general anti-communist feeling at the time would they have selected a recent defector to their plot which could only have fuelled fear and paranoia that the Soviets had been involved in the assassination of the President? Oswald’s defection couldn’t have been kept secret.

Question #1

Why, just after the Cuban Missile Crisis and at a time when the government wanted to avoid any escalation with the Soviet Union and with the general anti-communist feeling at the time would they have selected a recent defector to their plot which could only have fueled fear and paranoia that the Soviets had been involved in the assassination of the President? Oswald’s defection couldn’t have been kept secret.

I think you and I will agree on your primary point.

Americans of a certain age will remember that children practiced fallout response by getting under your school desk. (Interesting secret, being under a desk would save anyone from a nuclear attack on America. It would be useful if there was fallout from an American preemptive strike on Russia)

Yes the Cuban Missile Crisis plays an enormous role in the political situation and it’s influenced extends to the investigation This is not a short answer. Such is the norm in the study of the case.

Kennedy had assumed this invasion had been approved by Eisenhower. It had not. The generals in the room found JFK wanting, as he seemed concerned with the inevitable fate of the Cubans that landed at the Bay of Pigs. Some minds in the room saw JFK as a PT Boat commander rather than a president that sees the big picture. The Cuban “Americans” felt betrayed and desired revenge. No doubt they have been mislead about the expected level of US military support. Right wingers immediately accused Kennedy as being soft on Communism. These are violently inclined anti-Kennedy groups. The missile crisis is still on everyone’s mind when Lyndon Johnson insists that everyone come on board to serve on the Warren Commission as Johnson presents the assassination crisis to have a risk similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Phone call Nov 29, 1963

Senator Russell: Well, now, Mr. President, I just can’t serve on that commission..

President Johnson: Dick, it’s already been announced, and you can serve with anybody for the good of America. And this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than’s on the surface, and they’re—we got to take this out of the arena where they’re testifying it’s Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that, and that—kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour. And you’d put on your uniform in a minute.
Johnson uses this threat of nuclear war as a wrench, to tighten the nuts of whoever hesitates to serve him.

Oswald defection couldn’t have been kept secret. 100% yes.

Whether his defection was planned or unplanned. The FBI is interested. Is Oswald a patsy or a lone nut?? We will not find a smoking gun memo to prove this, such a document does not exist. We have only indicators.

if Oswald is a patsy, then his profile fits the needs of a plan that called for a loser to take the blame. The patsy role is discussed by KKK leader Milteer as a result of FBI informant Wille Somerset on 9 November.

MILTEER: There ain't any count down to it, we have just got to be sitting on go. Count down they can move in on you, and on go they can't. Count down is alright for a slow prepared operation, but in an emergency operation, you have got to be sitting on go.

SOMERSETT: Boy, if that Kennedy gets shot, we have got to know where we are at. Because you know that will be a real shake, if they do that.

MILTEER: They wouldn't leave any stone unturned there no way. They will pick up somebody within hours afterwards, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off.

SOMERSETT: Oh, somebody is going to have to go to jail, if he gets killed.

While Somersett provides information that cannot be corroborated, he was never shown to be wrong. Consider that in the first week of April 1968 Somersett called Miami Police Lieutenant Charles Sapp to inform him he learned on April 1 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was going to be shot. The next day, King was killed at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee.

[scottnapa]

Oswald was arrested at 1.50. They had the rifle and they had the fact that he’d killed Tippit and zero evidence of anyone else’s involvement so they made a natural assumption that he was acting alone. The words “..there was no conspiracy” appear to be the words of the author of the book so can we be certain that the word ‘conspiracy’ was actually mentioned aboard Airforce One or was it more a case of Johnson being told that the evidence pointed to Oswald acting alone in killing Kennedy.

As far as Burkley is concerned I can’t answer that as we don’t know what he’d intended to say but many people changed their mind one way or another over time. This report was 14 years after the event which seems rather a long time to start ‘remembering’ things. He hadn’t been talking to Mark Lane by any chance had he? He was 75 years old at that time.

Thank you for your response.
There are at least three versions of the tapes in existence; one in the LBJ Library, (shorter), two the recoveree d Clifton Tapes (longer with LeMay conversation) and three, the archived copy that William Manchester listened to. Pierre Salinger remembered the no conspiracy part as well.
The Clifton tape was made public when he died. Odd that General Clifton kept the tapes as a private citizen, and interesting that his copy was less edited than the presidential one at LBJ's library.
“There is a tape recording in the archives of the government which best recaptures the sound of the hours as it waited for leadership,” White wrote. “It is a recording of all the conversations in the air, monitored by the Signal Corps Midwestern center ‘Liberty,’ between Air Force One in Dallas, the Cabinet plane over the Pacific, and the Joint Chiefs’ Communications Center in Washington….On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy [emphasis added], learned the identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President’s mind turned to the duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick.”

Most folks listening to the Cliford tapes focus on the tug-of-war between Bethesda and Walter Reed.
"-Yes General Clifton?
- We do not want a helicopter for Bethesda Medical Center. We do want the ambulance and a ground return from Andrews to Walter Reed. And we want the regular post mortem that has to be done by law, under guard, performed at Walter Reed. Is that clear? Over.
- That is clear General Clifton. You want an ambulance and a ah….another limousine at Andrews and you want the regular post mortem by law done at Walter Reed."

And we're going to agree again on Burkeley. We don't know what he would've said.
but it is noteworthy that he came out and said conspiracy.
I assume his focus is related to the high back versus low neck wound because he signed the death certificate, he knows.
Yes he is 75 and memory is imperfect, however. we all have regrets. Burkley, like Landis, likely felt some regret. HSCA should have followed up, but Sprague was removed.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

So? If he’s already shot, he can’t be looking back to see what’s happening there? Or do I misunderstand your point?


Unfortunately, memory isn’t a recording machine.


Firstly, he doesn’t calmy turn around to see what’s happening. If he would have done that, he would have simply moved his right elbow above or on the backrest of his seat to facilitate the turning, but instead he keeps his arm against his body, that way restricting himself in turning backwards. Secondly, the pain in his face is no more clearly visible than it is starting at frame 224. Thirdly, in frame 295 Connally is leaning back into his wife’s lap. How or from where do you think he could have been hit in his back, near his right armpit? And fourthly, according to his wife, Connally held on to his hat until they arrived at the hospital.


Would that include the movement of the lapel of his jacket? Or the odd flipping of his hat? And why first turn forward? And what’s with the rapid lowering of his right shoulder? From frame 227 to 229 he lowers it significantly. That’s 0.22 seconds.


Even though I don't find it convincing, thanks for sharing it.

All the best,congenial manner.

Frank

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Q_ndofzbo&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4olEc4xdVB4&ab_channel=GilJesus

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c69eTiZCZs&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69H_OyVFqrM&ab_channel=GilJesus

Best regards, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Q_ndofzbo&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4olEc4xdVB4&ab_channel=GilJesus

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c69eTiZCZs&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69H_OyVFqrM&ab_channel=GilJesus

Best regards, George

Great Videos , The Audacity of the WC to think they could fool those of us with Brains and Common sense .!!. They got the Sheep tho i guess.




Gee George , Whats taking people so long to work it out ???? How on earth could anyone, given the fact the the WC was instructed to find a lone gunman 3 shot conclusion at the expense of everything else known at the time and for the next 62 years , believe a word of it !!!

Its Staggering this has gone on for this long .

[FISHY1118]

As the Grassy Knoll shooter apparently fired the fatal head shot then the obvious question is why they didn’t simply use him and abandon the pointless TSBD connection. The GK gunman got away totally anonymously. Without Oswald we wouldn’t have had 60 years of suspicion. There is no excuse/explanation for this.

Oswald never fired a shot , Oswald was the fall guy, Mutiple shooters in different locations, with the Presidential limo in the best position for them to fire upon . JFK was a lame duck.

[FISHY1118]

That he’d defected to the Soviet Union and threatened to give away secrets. The fact that the FBI were supposed to be watching him and yet he went on to kill the President. His time at the Mexican embassy (known by the CIA) that he attempted to get to Cuba (known by the CIA) that he’d been a part of the FPFC campaign (known by the CIA)

It’s hardly surprising that these embarrassed organisations wanted to keep a lid on certain facts. The fact that they held things back is common knowledge as Warren Commission Council complained regularly about ‘trying to get blood out of a stone.’ No matter what the subject organisations like the CIA and FBI will always try and guard secrets. Likewise MI5 and MI6 over here. Everything that these people do has secrets. Even things that appear straightforward to us on the surface have have ramifications requiring secrecy. Their thinking will always be “if we tell them this, then they might look into that and then find out about the other. Which is what we don’t want.” These involve big secrets and we shouldn’t make assumptions. National Security is s highly complex matter. Added to this complexity you get situations where different institutions don’t agree or have a conflict of self interest.

So yes they have secrets (such is obvious) but we shouldn’t assume to know what they are.

Id be more interested certain files that pertain to Oswald ''after'' 22nd November 1963 , that directly relate to any involvement he may or may not have had in the assassination. Its those files i want to know that pose the ''threat'' th National Security . We all know about his life before that day , im not interested in that as much.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

When I first reacted to something you wrote about what the Zapruder film shows, I said I just wanted to say one thing here and I stick to that.

So, it was not about witnesses who all thought the fatal shot came from behind the picket fence or what medical people said and it certainly wasn’t about the package Oswald was or wasn’t carrying, it was just about what the Zapruder film shows with regards to the shot that hit JFK in the back & throat.

And while my brains & common sense tell me that JFK and Connally both react to being hit by a shot from behind, without claiming that it came or could not have come from anywhere else but the TSBD, yours clearly tells you something else, although I’m left with the impression that it’s not necessarily the Zapruder film that tells you that.

So, we congenially agree to disagree and I’ll leave you to it.

All the best,
Frank

[Doctored Whatsit]

How on earth could anyone, given the fact the the WC was instructed to find a lone gunman 3 shot conclusion at the expense of everything else known at the time and for the next 62 years , believe a word of it !!!

Its Staggering this has gone on for this long .[/B]

Fact. Not one single member of the WC investigation team was ever asked or encouraged to reach any specific conclusion. It's staggering that people keep claiming this lie to be a fact.

[FISHY1118]

Fact. Not one single member of the WC investigation team was ever asked or encouraged to reach any specific conclusion. It's staggering that people keep claiming this lie to be a fact.

Its staggering how people cant distinguish a lie from a fact .




LBJ stated in the early hours after the assassination that it was a ''matter of national security to pin all the blame on Oswald'' to avoid a nuclear war. Continuing to chase other assassination leads could easily point to the Soviets. President Johnson told the Warren Commission to make sure they place all the blame on Oswald so that the US didn’t end up having a nuclear exchange.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Frank,

I agree that we will have to agree to disagree, as always in a congenial manner.

In my view the WC was briefed to conclude that there was a lone gunman, and to suppress any evidence to the contrary, which they did by ignoring witnesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Q_ndofzbo&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4olEc4xdVB4&ab_channel=GilJesus

The SBT was also contrived in the face of medical opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c69eTiZCZs&ab_channel=GilJesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69H_OyVFqrM&ab_channel=GilJesus

Best regards, George

Hi George, you might find this interesting .






''They had the rifle and they had the ''fact'' that he’d killed Tippit '' This 3 min.33 secs video evidence blows that fact away. Again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6xHGwUHZAA&ab_channel=HelmerReenberg

[FISHY1118]

How could Oswald be identified so quickly as a suspect after the Kennedy assassination?



The APB [all points bulletin] for the suspect of JFK's assassination was described as an early or mid-twenties caucasian male between 5′9–5′11 in height with a slight build and wearing a grey Eisenhower-type jacket. We call such jackets today "Windbreakers". In the 1950s and 1960s, those jackets were made with materials such as Poppin or "stiff" cotton weaves.

Such a description should have had most of the local and federal law enforcement representatives stopping just about everyone on the street (look at the films immediately after the shooting; everybody and their uncle is wearing one, just in Dealey Plaza alone). Yet they [Dallas PD] first went to a church a few blocks from the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. A witness(s) claimed he and another man followed one of the shooters of Tippit down the driveway/alley adjacent to the house where Tippit was murdered but lost him when he went to a parking lot. All witnesses claimed that one of the shooters wore a grey Eisenhower jacket. Lo and behold, someone found a grey Eisenhower jacket on the ground in a "church parking lot".

By the way, this "church" was called "The Abundant Life Temple". It was a refuge [safe house] for Cuban [anti-Castro] refugees, military-trained operatives, and CIA-controlled terrorists, with many chapters throughout the southern United States, particularly in New Orleans.

The next lead the Dallas PD followed came from a shopkeeper, who claimed a man walking down a street had passed in front of his display window and "looked suspicious". This suspicious man entered a movie theater (adjacent to his clothing store) without paying. That may seem like an observant citizen, who was looking for the murderer of Officer Tippit or at least the shooter of JFK and Gov. Connelly, only there's one problem. The APB was only broadcasted on "police frequencies". The commercial radio broadcasts hadn't circulated the description of Tippit's shooter(s) or JFK, only the shooting in Dealey. By the way, no one knows who reported the description to the Dallas DP dispatch.

As I stated before, the description was so general that just about anyone could have fit the APB.

Back to the murder of Tippet. Every eye witness who saw the murder of Officer Tippit gave contradictory descriptions of Tippett's killer(s). I say 'killers' because at least one witness claimed there were at least two individuals involved in the shooting of Tippet. One witness, Benevides, later retracted his statement to law enforcement after his brother was murdered. Both he and his brother looked alike, and it is believed that the murderer of his brother (who was never found) mistook his older brother for him.

Another witness [Clemmons] said she saw at least two men, not one, involved in the murder. She was warned or threatened by law enforcement representatives not to speak about her testimony to anyone, not even her family, or she might be in "serious trouble". She complied somewhat. Her testimony was never entered or quantified by the Warren Commission or the HSCA. Still, her statement is on file with the Dallas DA and in a filmed interview by Mark Lane that you can still see on YouTube. The only media interview she ever gave.

Then you have the LHO time frame.

If LHO had murdered Tippit, he would have had to walk/jog/run nearly a mile in under thirteen minutes to get to the movie theater. Yet no one in the route postulated by the Warren Commission saw him or anyone else doing this in the time allotted. Maybe he got a ride by bus or car. If so, it would make sense. But LHO didn't [couldn't] drive, and no bus had a route that would have taken him to the theater in that time frame. Nor are there any records indicating that a taxi picked him up. If a friend had picked him up, how would they have known WHERE to get him? His landlady stated he never used the phone; during his brief stay before departing the rooming house. Remember, he supposedly shot the president does anyone think he would stand out in the open to wait for a ride from a friend, a taxi, or a bus? No, I don't think so, either.

Given the witness testimonies of the murder of Tippit. The general description from the APB. The grey Eisenhower jacket (discovered in the opposite direction of the movie theater) in the parking lot of a rather suspicious "church". One has to wonder, "How was he caught so quickly?".

Now, a few tidbits. Jacob Rubinstein a.k.a "Jack Ruby", had recently bought a home in Oak Cliff. Less than a few blocks from where Officer Tippit was murdered. The witnesses and the residents of the neighborhood where Officer Tippit was murdered knew him. He was regularly seen in the community and visiting the home, where he would later be murdered.

This might not seem strange unless you realize the Oak Cliff district was never Officer J.D. Tippit's patrol area. The Dallas PD can't account for the entirety of his actions leading up to and immediately after the assassination that day. Tippit was seen at least once bullying customers so he could use a pay phone at a local [Oak Cliff] laundromat just before or during JFK's assassination. He was known to frequent this very laundromat regularly. Again, this laundromat wasn't his regularly assigned patrol area. Go figure.

Also, Officer Tippit was having an affair with one of Jack Ruby's dancers. Tippit had gotten her pregnant, which back then [circa 1963] would have been disastrous for his career. Not only that, Officer Tippit was married with children at the time. Suspiciously, on the morning of the assassination. His wife stated he kissed his little boy and told him, "No matter what happens, I want you to know I love you." The dancer that Tippit was seeing lived in the house that he was killed in front of. And Tippit and other law enforcement personnel regularly worked for Jack Ruby as bouncers and bagmen in his two clubs.

Billy Lovelady, a Texas School Book Depository team member, worked alongside LHO. Lovelady could have been LHO's brother (look up the name, see for yourself). Anyway, Mr. Lovelady had a fascinating history before his employment with the depository. He had been incarcerated and dishonorably discharged from the US Air Force for the crime of theft/gunrunning/smuggling. Guess what one of Jack Ruby's more profitable ventures was. Both LHO and Lovelady were referred to the TSBD by Ruth Paine. Mrs. Paine was a confidant of Marina Ozwald and just happened to be the daughter of a former State Department official. Her aunt was formerly a secretary to Allen Dulles; if the rumors are true, her aunt was also one of Alen Dulles’ mistresses. Mrs. Paine considered Dulles not only a friend but an adopted ‘uncle’. Small world?

Strange, a US Marine defector with a top-secret security clearance (that was never revoked, by the way) and a former gun smuggling guest of the US Military penal system happen to work at the same building, with the same company, on the same day, at the same time the presidential motorcade parade happened to drive by and both men looked nearly identical.

LHO, if the conclusions are valid, was a paid informant for the FBI/US Customs and a "sometimes" operative/asset for the CIA by the Office of Naval Intelligence [ONI]. Yes, I know; bare with me.

The few things we know (though documentation) is that federal law enforcement officers had briefed LHO on several occasions after his return to the USA. No documentation of these meetings has been released to the public. But at least some of the records that have been acknowledged have either been destroyed, lost, or, get this, "Classified under the grounds of National Security", still some fifty years later!

Remember, this man was a defector to the USSR and was allowed repatriation back to the US without so much as a day in a prison cell. Why? Well, the most apparent reason was he was an agent for some intelligence agency or was being watched by some intelligence agencies to see what or who he would contact now that he was back in the States if he was a defector.

Now, let's say he wasn’t a legitimate defector and had been ordered to infiltrate a group(s) or befriend a person or persons planning to threaten or assassinate the president. Let's say he warned his supervisors before the assassination, but something went wrong on the day of the assassination. Immediately after the assassination, he went home to gather his wits and proceed to a predetermined rendezvous that his supervisor had designated. While there, both LHO and his supervisor would confer on his progress as an informer in relative safety without raising suspicion. Say, a coffee shop? A laundromat? Maybe, a movie theatre? But once there, LHO may have realized that he had been set up as a fall guy as the murderer of JFK.

Nothing about his capture nor his history makes sense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Most folks listening to the Cliford tapes focus on the tug-of-war between Bethesda and Walter Reed.
"-Yes General Clifton?
- We do not want a helicopter for Bethesda Medical Center. We do want the ambulance and a ground return from Andrews to Walter Reed. And we want the regular post mortem that has to be done by law, under guard, performed at Walter Reed. Is that clear? Over.
- That is clear General Clifton. You want an ambulance and a ah….another limousine at Andrews and you want the regular post mortem by law done at Walter Reed."

.

Thanks for the answer Scott. Do you think it interesting that at that stage there still appeared to be doubt about where the autopsy was going to occur? Wouldn't you think that setting up an autopsy that was to have a prearranged outcome would have taken considerable time and effort? I can’t imagine that those involved would have just fallen into line on an issue like this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great Videos , The Audacity of the WC to think they could fool those of us with Brains and Common sense .!!. They got the Sheep tho i guess.




Gee George , Whats taking people so long to work it out ???? How on earth could anyone, given the fact the the WC was instructed to find a lone gunman 3 shot conclusion at the expense of everything else known at the time and for the next 62 years , believe a word of it !!!

Staggering this has gone on for this long .

You’re being very free with the insults for someone who is regularly criticising others for far less Fishy. To be honest though I’m glad that you used that opening sentence because I read a book a while ago on why people fall for conspiracy theories and one of the reasons is a desire to be seen as ‘cleverer’ that those that disagree. A perfect illustration of the point by you.

You, and the rest of the conspiracy community (who believed Garrison’s 20 gunman, and the man with the loaded umbrella, and the sewer rat shooter, and Hickey’s accidental headshot, and White’s dodgy diary, and Jackie the killer, and Greer the gunman, and barking mad Badgeman, and the pathetic Prayer Man, and the three tramps who turned out to be three tramps, and the Airforce One operating theatre, and Woody Harrelson’s dad, and imaginary Saul, and Cooper’s ‘aliens did it’ theory, and the French drug dealers, and Nagel the nut job, and the loaded lookalike) can hold your heads up high as you have so much ‘brains and common’ sense as you compare yourself against those of us who have the wild theory that a disaffected, rather strange young man took his rifle and shot a famous person. I mean..how ‘crazy’ we are.

The irony isn’t lost on the rest of us Fishy. You are making such wild claims, and have been fed them for so long, that you’ve become immune to how bizarre they actually are. A lifetime of reading only conspiracy based books can only have helped your confirmation bias.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its staggering how people cant distinguish a lie from a fact .




LBJ stated in the early hours after the assassination that it was a ''matter of national security to pin all the blame on Oswald'' to avoid a nuclear war. Continuing to chase other assassination leads could easily point to the Soviets. President Johnson told the Warren Commission to make sure they place all the blame on Oswald so that the US didn’t end up having a nuclear exchange.

Your opening sentence should be asked in a room with a mirror.

Because he wanted to contain any wild, unfounded rumours, of Soviet involvement for very obvious reason Fishy. This wasn’t a game that was going on here. Johnson was the President. Do you really think that a man known as one of the wiliest political operators in American history is going to spill the beans on some kind of conspiracy over a phone line that was recorded? Come on.