JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[GBinOz]

Randle also gave estimated measurements. Hers was only 5 inches shorter than the bag needed to be to conceal the broken down rifle.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.

RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance.

Randle also said something that makes it clear the package did not contain curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.
You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to--
Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.
Mr. BALL. To the bottom?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.
Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the top?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Obviously curtain rods are not bulky towards one end.

Lets remember that if Oswald is a patsy, then both Randle and Frazier have to be part of the Conspiracy to frame him. Yet Randle estimates the package was a full foot longer than her brother did. Didn't they get the same memo from the Conspiracy?

Randle "had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance". It is far easier to estimate sizes by means of comparison that by guessing measurements, particularly through a window at a distance. That was what I was getting at in my post. What did you derive from the cupped hand to armpit experiment?

[Fiver]

The original autopsy report was deliberately destroyed by Dr James Humes, the senior pathologist, after the murder of Lee Oswald.

If there is a Conspiracy, then Dr Hume has to be part of it. Which if the Conspiracy is competent, would mean Hume would never have to rewrite his notes or report, he'd just have to copy down the script that the Conspiracy gave him. Plus, we only know of the rewriting and destruction of the initial copies because Hume said so.

Which is more likely to have made these mistakes - a lone Doctor who hadn't done a forensic autopsy before or a murder Conspiracy of hundreds?

[Fiver]

Tague claimed he was wounded by the 2nd shot fired.

Connally also claimed he was wounded by the 2nd shot fired. So what's your point?

[GBinOz]

I don’t really get the argument you’re facing Fiver. Lee Harvey Oswald himself admitted that he was carrying a long parcel that wasn’t his lunch pack. He never denied it. He just made up the least believable lie in crime history when he was put on the spot. There were categorically no curtain rods, therefore the question is ‘what did the long package contain?’

I know the answer. You know the answer. Everyone must know the answer.

Frazier testified that when he parked the car Oswald left towards the TSBD before him, and that he (Frazier) was watching some welders working on the railroad track . By the time Oswald reached the TSBD Building, he was at least 50 feet ahead of Frazier. Dougherty was at the back entrance when Oswald arrived, and testified Oswald wasn't carrying anything.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Oswald was living in a furnished room that wouldn't need curtain rods. Simple explanation - Oswald acquired the curtain rods for someone else, went ahead of Frazier and passed on the curtain rods to that someone else and arrived at the TSBD empty handed. Ah-ha I hear you say, why didn't he tell that to the police and why didn't that person come forward. We wouldn't know if he told police as records of the interrogations were not kept, and who would have wanted to involve themselves in a Presidential murder plot. Then there is the JtR cop-out - Randle and Frazier were remembering a different day. Or perhaps they were mistaken, as is contended of all the doctors at Parkland.

What we all must know is that not one witness testified that they saw Oswald carrying a package long enough to conceal a rifle. Indeed they testified that the parcel was too short to conceal rifle.

[Fiver]

The rewritten autopsy report includes measurements and other data that do not exist in the pathologists’ surviving notes and diagrams

A typed report not including every detail from handwritten notes proves that the report is a summary, not an exhaustive list of all points. Your source provides no evidence that the autopsy report contradicts the handwritten notes, nor that the autopsy report contradicts the forensic evidence.

This is smoke and mirrors by your link, not proof of a Conspiracy.

[Fiver]

[*]The photographic record is incomplete. The pathologists and photographers recalled ordering and taking photographs which appear no longer to exist.

Did you miss that your source provides no evidence that any pathologist or reporter claimed there were any missing photos?

And we've already seen your source make claims that are provably false.

This is just more smoke and mirrors from your source.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Frazier testified that when he parked the car Oswald left towards the TSBD before him, and that he (Frazier) was watching some welders working on the railroad track . By the time Oswald reached the TSBD Building, he was at least 50 feet ahead of Frazier. Dougherty was at the back entrance when Oswald arrived, and testified Oswald wasn't carrying anything.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Oswald was living in a furnished room that wouldn't need curtain rods. Simple explanation - Oswald acquired the curtain rods for someone else, went ahead of Frazier and passed on the curtain rods to that someone else and arrived at the TSBD empty handed. Ah-ha I hear you say, why didn't he tell that to the police and why didn't that person come forward. We wouldn't know if he told police as records of the interrogations were not kept, and who would have wanted to involve themselves in a Presidential murder plot. Then there is the JtR cop-out - Randle and Frazier were remembering a different day. Or perhaps they were mistaken, as is contended of all the doctors at Parkland.

What we all must know is that not one witness testified that they saw Oswald carrying a package long enough to conceal a rifle. Indeed they testified that the parcel was too short to conceal rifle.

No, both Frazer and Randles did but you appear to doubt them George because they didn’t get out a tape measure. Their estimates were close enough.

Come on George…are you really suggesting that Oswald went to buy curtain rods for a work mate, passed them on in the car park before he reached the building without Frazer seeing him, he then went inside, and just planted some brown wrapping paper on the 6th floor. There were no curtain rods. It was a rifle. 100%. I’ve never known any human being having so many excuses made for him than Oswald. It’s like people are defending the honour of a parent. Did he ever do or say anything that wasn’t actually something else?

He goes to the Paine’s a day earlier than ever before and without warning - how is that not an alarm bell?

He leaves $175 and his wedding ring - did he suddenly get forgetful or was he hoping to pick up a woman at work and he didn’t want to appear married?

He carrying a long package.

He isn’t carrying a lunch pack, why? Because he’s going to be busy at lunchtime.

He lies, 100% lies about curtain rods.

He won’t talk to his wife about the Kennedy visit.

He lies about owning a gun.

The gun that he has stashed is gone.

He gets to the 6th floor and becomes the only man in Dallas not to know that Kennedy was coming.

This isn’t difficult stuff. The only thing difficult with Oswald George is the constant heavy lifting that has to be done to come up with excuses for his ever suspicious action. Every single thing that he does that day is suspicious. It’s just impossible that he didn’t shoot Kennedy. Impossible.

That said George, I get it that we’ll never agree on this. Put Oswald in front of a jury and they’d have taken 10 minutes. Guilty. I’m sorry but the guy was a lowlife, double-murdering traitor who escaped justice.

[scottnapa]

That seems unlikely.

Clearly you have done research. thanks for the links.
However you do seen to guess quite a bit, if you choose to pass off your guesses as fact. As you have done here.and in previous posts with me. Where you there on the 50th? I was. With a ticket.
The city took over Dealey Plaza for a ceremonial eulogy for JFK. James Tague was excluded from attending as admission was by ticket. That is what i meant when i said Tague was excluded.He could walk around before and after the ceremony, but Dealey Plaza was roped of for the general public Closed off for the duration of speeches unless you had a ticket. So the city of Dallas here weren't going to give Robert Groden a ticket or James Tague a ticket.
He was interviewed. Yes. Tague spent many hours in the hotel where like minded citizens were gathered. Writers were in that hotel Thompson Mellon, Russell, etc. and books were for sale and Tague wanted to show everyone his book That is where I met and l spoke to James Tague.

[GBinOz]

That said George, I get it that we’ll never agree on this.

That's OK. I'm with Jeff on this - if we all agreed we'd have nothing to talk about. The important thing is to keep discussions on a civil basis....well...maybe with the occasional humorous dig.

The reality is that you have zero evidence and zero witnesses to sustain the contention that Oswald carried a parcel long enough to contain a rifle on that day.

[scottnapa]

If there is a Conspiracy, then Dr Hume has to be part of it. Which if the Conspiracy is competent, would mean Hume would never have to rewrite his notes or report, he'd just have to copy down the script that the Conspiracy gave him. Plus, we only know of the rewriting and destruction of the initial copies because Hume said so.

Which is more likely to have made these mistakes - a lone Doctor who hadn't done a forensic autopsy before or a murder Conspiracy of hundreds?

Once again you have an incorrect conclusion and make a false options.This imaginary conspiracy of thousands fantasy is rather a self indulgent domino for you as it is easy to knock that domino down. This non existent conspiracy is not what anyone here is claiming. Every organization has agendas.
The most important person in the world is killed and the everyone wants answers, the SS FBI all want to avoid blame. FBI doesn’t want a conspiracy.
There are a number of conclusions that are reached for CYA reasons. There are true curiosities and mysteries .. again no trial so the FBI can discard the Oswald threatening note in the toilet, The CIA is a different story. I offered the example of Ralph Sigler. MI is part of the larger picture that is not discussed. Did you google him? Maybe not.
As for Humes, this is a military base, he is under orders. They tell him to not probe the back wound He follows orders. Evidence is tainted. Many times in the course of studying the assassination, a person has decide who is telling the truth. Just because Humes followed orders doesn’t mean he let Ruby into the basement.
As we have discussed , the autopsy started when a Oswald was alive. Burning the autopsy report and replacing it with a new one is destruction of evidence that is ONLY possible if Oswald is dead. You remember we had this discussion about evidence not being admissible in court. It took a while but you got there. So I still have hope for you.

[FISHY1118]

If there is a Conspiracy, then Dr Hume has to be part of it. Which if the Conspiracy is competent, would mean Hume would never have to rewrite his notes or report, he'd just have to copy down the script that the Conspiracy gave him. Plus, we only know of the rewriting and destruction of the initial copies because Hume said so.

Which is more likely to have made these mistakes - a lone Doctor who hadn't done a forensic autopsy before or a murder Conspiracy of hundreds?

Your getting "covered up" confused with "conspiracy", when you understand the difference it will make sense to you .

[C. F. Leon]

Your getting "covered up" confused with "conspiracy", when you understand the difference it will make sense to you .

The difference you are making is that a "conspiracy" is BEFORE the event, and "cover-up" is AFTER it?

[FISHY1118]

Connally also claimed he was wounded by the 2nd shot fired. So what's your point?

The second shot according to you then is c399 yes?

If the first shot missed then 399 must have caused Tagues and Connallys wound ? Thats impossible with the pristine condition of c399

Or you must think Tagues wound was the third head shot which I've asked to see the evidence of that with no answer.

[FISHY1118]

Clearly you have done research. thanks for the links.
However you do seen to guess quite a bit, if you choose to pass off your guesses as fact. As you have done here.and in previous posts with me. Where you there on the 50th? I was. With a ticket.
The city took over Dealey Plaza for a ceremonial eulogy for JFK. James Tague was excluded from attending as admission was by ticket. That is what i meant when i said Tague was excluded.He could walk around before and after the ceremony, but Dealey Plaza was roped of for the general public Closed off for the duration of speeches unless you had a ticket. So the city of Dallas here weren't going to give Robert Groden a ticket or James Tague a ticket.
He was interviewed. Yes. Tague spent many hours in the hotel where like minded citizens were gathered. Writers were in that hotel Thompson Mellon, Russell, etc. and books were for sale and Tague wanted to show everyone his book That is where I met and l spoke to James Tague.

I wasn't aware he actually wrote a book , I must read that.

[FISHY1118]

The difference you are making is that a "conspiracy" is BEFORE the event, and "cover-up" is AFTER it?

Let me make it simple 2 or more people could conspire to commit a murder or crime , countless other could be used to cover it up without knowledge of that event ..