JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[FISHY1118]

hey fishy
if your waiting to hear from others on their take of the conspiracy theory in order to get your stories straight / come up with a unified theory etc, thats fine if you all can or want to come up with a consensus between you, but its not important to me. ive never beleived people with alternate ideas to an "official " version of some controversial event have to agree on anything. it dosnt lessen the validity of it to me at all.

Do you honestly think abby after all these post, id really need to rely on others to form an opinion on your request ? I don't think so .I have my own thoughts on Oswald role in the assassination which I'm happy to share with anyone who asks.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

I don't know the answers to any of those questions. I have always been interested in the HOW and the WHY, but not so much the WHO pulled the trigger(s). I have often wondered, if Oswald was on the run and trying to escape when(if) he encountered Tippit, after shooting him why didn't he use Tippit's car to make a getaway?

I did see allegations that the man whose fingerprint was matched to the one found on the rifle rest box in the sniper's nest, convicted killer and good friend of LBJ, Malcolm Wallace was the GK shooter. He would have had to help build the sniper's nest and then get to the GK...I don't think so. More likely to have been the TSBD gunman, if anything.

Cheers, George

Thanks George ,interesting.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Abby,
I've already stated the basics of my beliefs but here they are again in a bit more detail.

I won't get too involved in this endless debate as I don't have the time nor interest.

I think the best case can be made for there being a CIA officer working out of JMWAVE who used a small team of volunteers from its Cuba project (assassination of Castro) and turned it against Kennedy. John Roselli and David Morales being two of them. Jack Ruby would have been given a supporting role ("I have been used for a purpose.") providing ground level information about the Dallas police and parade route- probably being told the parade route would be disrupted by anti-Castro activists, but not being told that Kennedy was to be killed. I believe there were two actual shooters. One on the left side behind the Grassy Knoll and the other in the Dal-Tex building. "Oswald's rifle" was hidden and shells were placed in the TSBD in advance. If there was a shooter on the sixth floor, he was only there to fire a missed shot to draw attention. Oswald was set up. Quickly after the assassination the DRE (proven to be CIA funded) was prompted to issue press releases to tie Oswald to the Castro government with the hopes that it would spark an invasion of Cuba.
Since Oswald was a CIA dangle, this needed to be covered up. The cover-up of Oswald's CIA connections was the only time any higher level government departments were involved.
I think the whole assassination plot could have been carried out by no more than 6 people.

Of course each element is a lengthy story all its own, especially Oswald's, but this is just the Cliff Notes version.
It's actually one of the more popular theories and further reading abounds.

JM

Funny how i dont see a herlock , wulf or caz or any WC supporter rebuttal claiming another crazy conspiracy theory nut to this post..

I'm sure I'll see something tomorrow?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll happily say that I disagree with the scenario (knowing that Jon won’t burst into tears just because I disagree, like some do) but you appear to wish to continue with your ‘victim’ pretence despite that fact that I’ve shown how many derogatory posts that both you and George have been responsible for and yet you continue with you ‘it’s all Herlock’s fault’ script. I’ve said nothing on this thread that merited George’s description ‘vitriolic.’ I’ve accepted my own posts and the faults, even the very mildly mocking ones, but you appear to be completely blind to your own. No doubt you are simply upset about your failed attempt to get me censured by Jon.

Im discussing the case Fishy. I actually answer questions; usually in detail. You resort to stuff like your ‘lied, mistaken, didn’t exist’ post which could be applied to every single witness in the case and so is completely pointless. The rest are either short, often mocking, sentences or “hooray got George’s.”

Its my intention to try and not get involved in any more silliness. I no longer care if I get replies from you or George. After all, it’s a good way of avoiding having to answer uncomfortable questions isn’t it? A bit of fake outrage followed by a sulk.

[FISHY1118]

I’ll happily say that I disagree with the scenario (knowing that Jon won’t burst into tears just because I disagree, like some do) but you appear to wish to continue with your ‘victim’ pretence despite that fact that I’ve shown how many derogatory posts that both you and George have been responsible for and yet you continue with you ‘it’s all Herlock’s fault’ script. I’ve said nothing on this thread that merited George’s description ‘vitriolic.’ I’ve accepted my own posts and the faults, even the very mildly mocking ones, but you appear to be completely blind to your own. No doubt you are simply upset about your failed attempt to get me censured by Jon.

Im discussing the case Fishy. I actually answer questions; usually in detail. You resort to stuff like your ‘lied, mistaken, didn’t exist’ post which could be applied to every single witness in the case and so is completely pointless. The rest are either short, often mocking, sentences or “hooray got George’s.”

Its my intention to try and not get involved in any more silliness. I no longer care if I get replies from you or George. After all, it’s a good way of avoiding having to answer uncomfortable questions isn’t it? A bit of fake outrage followed by a sulk.

Ahh so you just politely disagree with jon and move on , but your happy to cast insults and character assassinate posters like George and my self for the exactly same opinion , thats brilliant.
The reason is obvious why I don't respond to your post on the subject and it has nothing to do with avoiding the issue ,thats already been done successfully i might add, as the evidence has shown .

But whats plain to see now is your character herlock, and the way you pick and choose who you reply to and who you avoid on a particular subject.

Well that's your choice , but now i know the kind of person you are, although I can't say it , but im content in the fact you've shown it to be tru .

As far as my attempt to try and get you censured well that nonsense, if ever jon censured you im sure you'll deserve it ,,he won't take or need my advice to do it.

[cobalt]

'And how could they have been remotely confident that they could have ensured the cooperation of police officers, Secret Service officers, CIA officers, FBI officers, Doctors, Pathologists, Ballistics experts, photographic experts, handwriting experts, medical/chemical experts, the family, witnesses, Jack Ruby and the entire Warren Commission and staff?'

They didn't need to. When the guard changes everyone pretty much falls into line; those that don't become expendable as as seen with JFK witnesses in Dallas. I refer you back to my Reichstag comments which refer to a democracy at that time. Anyone who goes against the grain, which in the terms of the WC was to find the lone gunman responsible, is a subversive. LBJ made his remit very clear to the Warren Commission and he got the result he, as a beneficiary of the JFK assassination, required. That was the mastter closed long befoe Posner.

They shot Kennedy in broad daylight. Oswald the same with cameras all around. It was an exercise in power politics that has rarely been matched. Everyone knows who they are, but very few have the courage- for obvious reasons- to state in public. who they are. They still run the USA till this day despite the illusion of an 80 year old President so cannot be touched.

[FISHY1118]

'And how could they have been remotely confident that they could have ensured the cooperation of police officers, Secret Service officers, CIA officers, FBI officers, Doctors, Pathologists, Ballistics experts, photographic experts, handwriting experts, medical/chemical experts, the family, witnesses, Jack Ruby and the entire Warren Commission and staff?'

They didn't need to. When the guard changes everyone pretty much falls into line; those that don't become expendable as as seen with JFK witnesses in Dallas. I refer you back to my Reichstag comments which refer to a democracy at that time. Anyone who goes against the grain, which in the terms of the WC was to find the lone gunman responsible, is a subversive. LBJ made his remit very clear to the Warren Commission and he got the result he, as a beneficiary of the JFK assassination, required. That was the mastter closed long befoe Posner.

They shot Kennedy in broad daylight. Oswald the same with cameras all around. It was an exercise in power politics that has rarely been matched. Everyone knows who they are, but very few have the courage- for obvious reasons- to state in public. who they are. They still run the USA till this day despite the illusion of an 80 year old President so cannot be touched.

Finally a post from someone who understood what was happening at the time that resulted in the assassination of jfk , and hasn't got his head in the sand as to the fact it continues still today , its called politics and absolute power and total control . Well done

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ahh so you just politely disagree with jon and move on , but your happy to cast insults and character assassinate posters like George and my self for the exactly same opinion , thats brilliant.

Do you really want to go there Fishy. I’ve admitted to my comments but you appear to deny yours and George doesn’t appear to acknowledge his either. One-sided as ever.

The reason is obvious why I don't respond to your post on the subject and it has nothing to do with avoiding the issue ,thats already been done successfully i might add, as the evidence has shown .

You haven’t responded properly to a single point or question of mine as far as I can remember.

But whats plain to see now is your character herlock, and the way you pick and choose who you reply to and who you avoid on a particular subject.

Again, you insult my character for posts, while you completely ignore your own. Do you somehow think that there’s one rule of acceptable behaviour for you and George but a different one for me.

Well that's your choice , but now i know the kind of person you are, although I can't say it , but im content in the fact you've shown it to be tru .

An insult again? Ok.

As far as my attempt to try and get you censured well that nonsense, if ever jon censured you im sure you'll deserve it ,,he won't take or need my advice to do it.

It’s in black and white in three posts.

I admit to making mocking and sarcastic posts at times. I admit to derisory comments about conspiracy theorists. I admit to sometimes wording my criticisms too strongly and with a poor choice of wording.

So will Fishy (or George for that matter) make any similar admissions?

Just a few examples, from one poster, can we guess who?

Dont confuse ''conspiracy'' with ''contradiction'' as apoligist seem to always do


Without your usual hearsay, he said, or she said nonsense.


Your kidding right ? You tell him George, i cant waste time with with silly magic bullet theory that has so clearly been proven to be nonsense


This is what a desperate post looks like when all else fails


And the happy masses lapped it up because thats what they were told .


The answer was in Georges response it was that obvious a 3 year old would have spotted it


Don't you love the way apologist just brush aside what they can't explain,


But 1 step at a time ,we don't want to confuse the already confused too much.



You exactly the type of person the warren commission knew would believe its garbage report , luck for them there are millions of you


Like a good Apoligist Theorist you added the extremley unlikely alternative


in the minds of the apologist theres nothing to see here


You wasted so much time for nothing, because imo you ignore and are quite possibly blinded by an obvious lack of knowledge and understanding of what was actually happening in the political area during that time .


all to familier trait of the JFK Apoligist way of thinking


Speaking of crap


Gullible again


Its embarrassing to see you defend the w.c rubbish .


Sad that you believe the lie you were fed by the W.C

, but your incapable of any understanding of fact from fiction in relation to the JFK assassination.


you just keep believing the WC rubbish like the rest of masses and we'll know like the rest, you too have been hoodwinked


you've seen the facts but choosen the lie


The W.C was written for people just like you


Ducking and weaving are their hallmarks George, especially when they can't accept the evidence and the facts


Based on your lack of understanding of evidence


but hey you'll ignore that too like you do everything else so far


you waffle on to much about nothing


. It was a masterpiece for the gullible it was designed to fool .


The perfect description of the Lone Gunman theorist we see on this topic


I knew our resident W.C sucker was wrong


i really couldnt be bothered with internet trolls anymore


hence the direct no reply to his sad already answered drival


but as for the trolls, ill try leaving them to you


As we can all see from the above..…you are a hypocrite of monumental proportions Fishy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Finally a post from someone who understood what was happening at the time that resulted in the assassination of jfk , and hasn't got his head in the sand as to the fact it continues still today , its called politics and absolute power and total control . Well done

Its called an assassination. A murder of a man by a man. Not a plot involving about 1000 people.

I wonder if anyone could name another murder by conspiracy involving a 10th of those allegedly involved in this one?

[GBinOz]

This is an interview with Roger Craig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TLHx8dlGjE&ab_channel=JFKAssassination%3ATheRogerCraigStory

He was with Boone when the latter discovered a rifle at the NW corner of the TSBD. This is at the opposite end to the sniper's nest. He waited for Fritz to arrive and Fritz picked up the rifle and held it up for all to see. Craig was standing next to him and saw on the rifle barrel was stamped 7.65 Mauser. Weitzman, who was a gun buff and had owned a sporting good store, also identified the rifle as a Mauser 7.65, and signed a statutory declaration to that effect (see below). This identification stood for two days, and I wonder how a retailer for a Carcano 6.5 was located so quickly. The are two documents obtained from CIA records via FOI, one nominating Oswald's rifle as a Mauser, and the other showing a release that warned that the announcement of the rifle being a Carcano was an error.

Craig also stated that there were three 6.5 Carcano cartridge cases found neatly lined up and only an inch apart. Anyone who has ever shot a bolt action rifle knows that ejected cases don't line up like that. They must have been placed, and the question then arises - why weren't they just taken away?

[GBinOz]

Hi Fishy,

You've lost me here, I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that the colour slides of each individual frame of the Zapruder film provided to the Commission by Life Magazine are fakes? Life Magazine bought the original film and the rights to use it. If any fakery exists it had to be done by the magazine. Why would they do this when other copies exist and their work could be shown to be falsified? They considered the slides of the fatal shot to be unsuitable for use in their magazine.

Hi Doc,

I think that Fishy is referring to the fact that they reversed frames 314 and 315 so it looked like Kennedy's head had jerked forward. This is not conspiracy theory as the Magazine and Hoover acknowledged the error and apologised, blaming it on a printing mistake.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Hi Doc,

I think that Fishy is referring to the fact that they reversed frames 314 and 315 so it looked like Kennedy's head had jerked forward. This is not conspiracy theory as the Magazine and Hoover acknowledged the error and apologised, blaming it on a printing mistake.

Cheers, George

So will Herlock be retracting the series of those fake slides from his post?

[GBinOz]

To Jonathan, GB and fishy
Do you all think Oswald wasnt a shooter and or didnt even have a gun? Did he even know about the plot to kill the president?

It would be interesting to see each of your individual story of the details of the conspiracy-who, what why etc etc. and oswalds role in it, if any.
The non conspiracy(oswald acted alone) story is pretty straight forward and well known-but im hazy on the details of yours.

I ask this in all sincerity, im genuinely interested. Full transparency-- as Ive stated before, although I lean toward oswald acting alone, Im completely open to a conspiracy, or at least a second shooter. Would love to know your detailed "theory"/idea.
Please no links or referring to other researchers work-Just in your own words.

Hi Abby,

I've been thinking about your questions, and it has taken longer than I anticipated.

First question. I lean towards Oswald NOT having pulled a trigger because:
1. Caroline Arnold saw Oswald in the lunchroom at 12:15 -12:25. The motorcade was running 15 minutes late, so he should have been in place on the 6th floor at that time.
2. Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were on the stairs at the time when Oswald should have been there. This time was disputed, but Adams supervisor stated that she saw Adams come down the stairs immediately before she saw Baker go up.
3. The men on the fifth floor that testified that they heard the shots above them and cartridge cases hitting the floor didn't see Oswald going down the stairs.
4. Oswald would have had limited time to get to where he was spotted by Baker thus limiting his ability to pause and wait until people weren't looking.

Second question: Did he have a gun? The retailer that supplied A Hidell with a Carcano 6.5 was located very quickly given that for two days the rifle was identified as a Mauser 7.65. Paine said he didn't own a rifle, Marina said he did. IMO the rifle in the backyard photos is not the rifle nominated as the murder weapon. We now know, from declassified documents, that Oswald was a CIA asset. Hoover said in a memo to LBJ that A Hidell was a woman. If further released documents show Paine was a CIA agent then I would say that she obtained the gun as part of the "patsy" setup.

My interest doesn't extend to naming gunmen, but IMO there was the shooter in the TSBD, another on the roof of the Records Building and one behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. I tend to agree with Jon that the first shot was a missed shot to draw attention AND to provide a counting signal so that shots thereafter could be fired at predetermined intervals to create simultaneous reports. This would have been the manhole shot or the Tegue shot. The throat shot was small calibre from the front, the next the Kennedy back shot, then the Connolly shot and finally the near simultaneous head shots from the front (frangible) and the rear (FMJ). That is my opinion based on a reading of the evidence.

The WHO? This involves mostly conjecture beginning with examining who had the most to gain. LBJ was defeated by JFK for the democratic nomination. He then abandoned his high powered job as Senate Democratic leader and majority leader to take up the position of VP, which was generally considered to be like winning a "bucket of warm spit". He actually asked one of his staff to find out how many Presidents had died in office allowing their VP's to ascend to the position. He was scared that he was to be dumped as a running mate at the next election. While he had an iron grip on the resources in Texas, the change of power rendered RFK powerless and brought all of the government resources under his control. His specific instructions were that the lone gunman was the only story to be allowed. The CIA were happy to see JFK go as he intended to close down their money earner, the Vietnam War. All conflicting evidence and witness testimony was suppressed or ignored by order of LBJ and Hoover. That's how I see it, but I accept others will have different views and hope they can be expressed politely and in the spirit of debate.

I hope I have answered your questions Abby.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

So will Herlock be retracting the series of those fake slides from his post?

He's not known for that trait. Did you notice that "Apologist" is considered an insult, but not "Conspiracy theorist"? And Loonies, Childish, Infantile, Cowardly.....just stock in trade for the master of wit and repartee. Not a personal attack at all. But I wouldn't report his posts, as Jon suggests. I just chose to disengage from debate with the author and content myself with occasionally "taking the mickey" in a humorous way. I notice I am often on the opposite side of the argument with Frank, Jeff, Doc, Trevor, and sometimes even yourself, but the debate doesn't descend below the level of civilised. But Sir HS seems to be outraged by opinions that don't conform to his own, resorting to hyperbole, superlatives, disparagement and suggestions (in very large bold fonts) that his answers are so obviously 100% overwhelmingly correct that any further debate should just be closed down. I wonder what he might have said to Bugliosi about his comment on the RFK assassination: "This conspiracy might ultimately make Watergate look like a one-roach marijuana bust".

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

thanks George, Jon and Cobalt for answering my questions and giving your scenarios. Interesting stuff and food for thought.
when i favored a conspiracy it went along the lines of pissed off ex cuban patriots/castro assassins that turned on Kennedy with possibly headed by CIA rogue with LHO as def shooter firing at least the neck shot and possible second shooter from GN/ overpass area. And maybe a little bit wider CIA cover up afterwards because of course they wouldnt want it to get out that it was "agents" of the CIA that were involved in tje assassination. perhaps ruby was used to kill oswald as part of that cover up.

It neednt involve a huge amount of people either way and i dont think it likely the Dallas police, fbi, mafia, LBJ , castro or the russians had any involvement in it. now that all being said, it was crazy effed up times back then and kennedy did have alot of powerful enemies that really hated him and wanted to see him dead. And re Oswald.. dudes an enigma. who knows what was really going on in his head and IMHO could have been anything from a lone nutter to real CIA agent/double agent. the truth is probably somewhere in between.