JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Herlock Sholmes]

I forgot to add, on the subject of the alleged Grassy Knoll gunman….didn’t these conspirators (who were used to thinking tactically and planning for all eventualities after all) consider that with such a huge event such as a visit from the President any number of people in Dealey Plaza would have been taking film footage and photographs? Any one of which might have caught something on camera which completely derailed the cover up. Did they think that no one would bother investigating? This was allegedly a plot to kill the most powerful man on the planet after all. The ramifications of this kind of plot would have been unimaginable……it would have been a case of avoiding being discovered at absolutely all costs. It would have been one or two ‘professionals’ with military grade equipment removed from Dealey Plaza silently and efficiently. Can we really believe that they would have bothered involving a complete loser like Oswald with an old WW2 rifle being left to wander the streets of Dallas before getting arrested and being interviewed at length?

Then we have the entire Warren Commision - all corrupt, all of the Warren Commision researchers - all corrupt. Whatever the debates and disputes about rifle shots, or what witnesses allegedly did or didn’t see, none of this basic idea of a conspiracy makes the remotest sense imo.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi George , if ever anyone needed any more proof that Oswald didnt shoot President Kennedy, just watch this New Documentary from the 24th Nov 2022 titled ''The ''Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald''


You might want to pay attention to the part about Howard Brennan [9.30 min onwards ] which had nothing at all to do with his eyesight i might add .

If Howard Brennan is to be believed , then what about Barbara and Arnold Rowland at 13.00 min ?


Then there is the Rifle 15.00 mins to 18.00 min BOOOOOOMMMM case closed . Poor Oswald never fired a shot .

Then he just took a rifle to work for a laugh?

[Abby Normal]

Hi all
Fascinating thread and subject. I just re read the entire thread and if anyone is interested in my two personal connections to the case and insights(as well as others interesting take and research)i would encourage you to go back and re read as well. (i dont feel like re hashing and re writing everything ive already written lol).
Ill just say that I think there is a good possibility that there was another shooter from the front (the grassy knoll/rr bridge area) who fired the fatal head shot, although I still lean that Oswald probably worked alone.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi all
Fascinating thread and subject. I just re read the entire thread and if anyone is interested in my two personal connections to the case and insights(as well as others interesting take and research)i would encourage you to go back and re read as well. (i dont feel like re hashing and re writing everything ive already written lol).
Ill just say that I think there is a good possibility that there was another shooter from the front (the grassy knoll/rr bridge area) who fired the fatal head shot, although I still lean that Oswald probably worked alone.

Cheers Abby, I’ll have a look back tomorrow.

One question that I can’t help considering is about how Oswald could have been set up?

Surely he wouldn’t just have taken a rifle to work and left in on the floor that he was known to have been working on for someone else to fire? And if someone else put it there how could that have happened? Can anyone think it possible that someone else sneaked in and waited on the off chance that the employees would all vacate the floor just when the motorcade passed? It wouldn’t have taken a Professor Moriarty to have realised that there would have been a very good chance of some employees wanting to view the motorcade from the windows of that floor? Just one person decides to watch the motorcade and it’s plan over. Would the CIA or the Mafia or any professional assassin have been that dumb? Could Oswald, days in advance, have been certain that he’d have been alone on the 6th floor? The fact that he left money and his wedding ring at Ruth Paine’s house surely suggests that he at least suspected that he wouldn’t be going home.

I have to be suspicious about some witnesses too like the guy who said that he’d seen Oswald getting into a car (I can’t recall his name) If he had transport why did he stop at his rooming house, pick up his revolver and end up in the cinema? Why didn’t his co-conspirator in the car help him escape?

I have to agree with Bugliosi’s point that if the CIA or the Mafia were involved they would surely have helped Oswald escape and then he’d have been killed and and his body disposed of. Either that or he’d have been found after ‘apparently’ committing suicide with a note admitting to the assassination.

[Abby Normal]

Cheers Abby, I’ll have a look back tomorrow.

One question that I can’t help considering is about how Oswald could have been set up?

Surely he wouldn’t just have taken a rifle to work and left in on the floor that he was known to have been working on for someone else to fire? And if someone else put it there how could that have happened? Can anyone think it possible that someone else sneaked in and waited on the off chance that the employees would all vacate the floor just when the motorcade passed? It wouldn’t have taken a Professor Moriarty to have realised that there would have been a very good chance of some employees wanting to view the motorcade from the windows of that floor? Just one person decides to watch the motorcade and it’s plan over. Would the CIA or the Mafia or any professional assassin have been that dumb? Could Oswald, days in advance, have been certain that he’d have been alone on the 6th floor? The fact that he left money and his wedding ring at Ruth Paine’s house surely suggests that he at least suspected that he wouldn’t be going home.

I have to be suspicious about some witnesses too like the guy who said that he’d seen Oswald getting into a car (I can’t recall his name) If he had transport why did he stop at his rooming house, pick up his revolver and end up in the cinema? Why didn’t his co-conspirator in the car help him escape?

I have to agree with Bugliosi’s point that if the CIA or the Mafia were involved they would surely have helped Oswald escape and then he’d have been killed and and his body disposed of. Either that or he’d have been found after ‘apparently’ committing suicide with a note admitting to the assassination.

agree herlock. oswald was definitely planning , set up and fired at least some of the shots, especially the one that went through kennedys neck. he had tried earlier to assasinate a general. And I think if there was a second shooter it didnt necessarily have to be some huge high up conspiracy. but ill stop here and itll be interesting to see what you have to say after re reading the thread.

[GBinOz]

Then we have the entire Warren Commision - all corrupt, all of the Warren Commision researchers - all corrupt. Whatever the debates and disputes about rifle shots, or what witnesses allegedly did or didn’t see, none of this basic idea of a conspiracy makes the remotest sense imo.

Hi Herlock,

The Warren Commission ignored or devalued any witness and/or documentary evidence that did not fit the parameters of their brief. Conspiracy theories can be nonsense, or the revealing of the truth. You have to look at the evidence, rather than what you are being told, to tell the difference.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Cheers Abby, I’ll have a look back tomorrow.

One question that I can’t help considering is about how Oswald could have been set up?

Surely he wouldn’t just have taken a rifle to work and left in on the floor that he was known to have been working on for someone else to fire? And if someone else put it there how could that have happened? Can anyone think it possible that someone else sneaked in and waited on the off chance that the employees would all vacate the floor just when the motorcade passed? It wouldn’t have taken a Professor Moriarty to have realised that there would have been a very good chance of some employees wanting to view the motorcade from the windows of that floor? Just one person decides to watch the motorcade and it’s plan over. Would the CIA or the Mafia or any professional assassin have been that dumb? Could Oswald, days in advance, have been certain that he’d have been alone on the 6th floor? The fact that he left money and his wedding ring at Ruth Paine’s house surely suggests that he at least suspected that he wouldn’t be going home.

I have to be suspicious about some witnesses too like the guy who said that he’d seen Oswald getting into a car (I can’t recall his name) If he had transport why did he stop at his rooming house, pick up his revolver and end up in the cinema? Why didn’t his co-conspirator in the car help him escape?

I have to agree with Bugliosi’s point that if the CIA or the Mafia were involved they would surely have helped Oswald escape and then he’d have been killed and and his body disposed of. Either that or he’d have been found after ‘apparently’ committing suicide with a note admitting to the assassination.

All of the above is pure speculation and conjecture, including "Bugliosi's point". There is a plethora of actual witness accounts and signed evidence that point to more than one shooter and a cover-up.

[cobalt]

There was no need for a wide conspiracy. LBJ was sworn into office two hours after the assassination and controlled events thereafter, including appointments to the Warren Commission. Given that the assassination had taken place in Texas, the power base of LBJ, any locals would not need to have read Macbeth to realise the implications of questioning what took place.

The execution of Oswald would have removed any lingering temptation to speak out. If they could shoot a President in public, and shoot a suspect in front of a TV audience, then the forces responsible were not to be trifled with.

The beneficiaries of the coup are no longer with us, but their families and social groupings still exert influence in American politics. They have no motivation to open up the case of JFK. The response to Stone’s film revealed a great unease in the matter being debated at all.

[GBinOz]

I realise that most people go with conspiracy but I think it was Oswald alone. It’s less convoluted and ‘interesting’ but I think it’s the likeliest solution. I was really interested in the case for 2 or 3 years but have pretty much lost interest these days mainly due to some of the craziness of the convoluted theories that kept getting put forward. It’s not really something that I feel very strongly about. I don’t think that there will ever be anything like a ‘conclusion’ that satisfies all.

Hi Herlock,

From your comment and some of the incorrect data that you have posted, but without wishing to cause any offence, might I suggest that your knowledge on the subject may be dated? I have discovered an update on my knowledge having watched this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8i-R3saBBs&ab_channel=ABC7NewsBayArea

I am tempted to break my resolution never to buy any more books on the subject and order Josiah Thompson's book "Last Second in Dallas" which appears to be based on evidence and scientific analysis rather than conjecture and misinformation. It appears to resolve the HOW, but not the WHY, as the author admits. I would recommend the above YouTube video to all.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Then he just took a rifle to work for a laugh?

Who saw Oswald take ''HIS'' Italian Carcano Rifle into the TSBD ?

Youve scooted around my post without actually looking at the facts . By the FBI own admission they found the German made Mauser bolt action Rifle on the opposite side of the Book Depository S.W corner!!! by a signed FBI agent affidavit . A different Rifle to Oswalds mail order purchase the Warren Commission said he used to kill the president!!! , a stated fact by the FBI .

Again by the FBIs own testimony,they could,nt match conclusively Oswalds prints to that Rifle which by the way he had no record of owning .

Seeing how your always asking why would he /they do this, or why would they /he do that, then proceed to go of into some sort of strange narrative . Let me give you one .

If Oswald fired 3 shots frome the S.E corner of the TSBD ,why did he choose to go all the way over to the opposite corner and leave the Rifle ? !! [which he didnt own btw]

Then theres the Rowlands, who just like Brennan testified to seeing two men in the window on 6th floor of the S W corner, one holding a Rifle, strangely enough right where the murder weapon was found.

3 shall casing found on the S E Corner , The Rifle found on the S W Corner a Rifle mind you that was by the FBI own statement, ''One Which didnt match the Italian Carcano Rifle the Warren Commission said Oswald used to shoot and killed JFK.

The Rifle is everything ,think about it, Its been proven it was the German Mauser Rifle shown being carried out of the TSBD, its the German Mauser Rifle the FBI said they found in the the S W corner TSBD ,its the German Mauser Rifle being held up in the Dallas Police Dept hallway , yet the Warren Comission said Oswald killed Kennedy with HIS ITALIAN CARCANO . This is why everything in the Warren Commission Report that claims Oswald killed Kennedy is based on a lie .

But most of us already new that.


Sourse

''The Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald'' 24th Nov 2022

[Herlock Sholmes]

Who saw Oswald take ''HIS'' Italian Carcano Rifle into the TSBD ?

Youve scooted around my post without actually looking at the facts . By the FBI own admission they found the German made Mauser bolt action Rifle on the opposite side of the Book Depository S.W corner!!! by a signed FBI agent affidavit . A different Rifle to Oswalds mail order purchase the Warren Commission said he used to kill the president!!! , a stated fact by the FBI .

Where was this stated by the FBI? A police officer called Wade answered a press question saying something like “it was a Mauser I believe.” Apparently they looked similar.

Again Fishy we have to ask ourselves what kind of cabal of half-wired plotters would have paraded a different rifle in front of the world’s press hoping that no one would notice. Assassinate the President amateur hour! It’s just not believable.

Again by the FBIs own testimony,they could,nt match conclusively Oswalds prints to that Rifle which by the way he had no record of owning .

The police found the prints and said so but they used the tape method which at the same time as taking the prints it also destroyed them to there were none left by the time that the FBI received the rifle. In the past conspiracy theorists like Oliver Stone have dishonestly tried to turn this around (as he did in the film JFK) by saying ‘how come the police found no prints and yet the FBI then did? It was the other way around….the police found prints but the tape obliterated them.

Seeing how your always asking why would he /they do this, or why would they /he do that, then proceed to go of into some sort of strange narrative . Let me give you one .

Because in obsessing over debatable details conspiracy theorist fail to ask…..is this really believable, would people plan this assassination so amateurishly? I just can’t see it as realistic Fishy.

If Oswald fired 3 shots frome the S.E corner of the TSBD ,why did he choose to go all the way over to the opposite corner and leave the Rifle ? !! [which he didnt own btw]

Then theres the Rowlands, who just like Brennan testified to seeing two men in the window on 6th floor of the S W corner, one holding a Rifle, strangely enough right where the murder weapon was found.

He didn’t. He fired from the other corner, where the rifle was found. Dowland was either mistaken or an attention seeking liar. There was enough of them. Also, Rowland also claimed that he’d seen an ‘elderly negro’ in ‘Oswald’s’ window yet there was no elderly negro on that floor so that places a huge question mark over what he saw. Brennan however (who I assume wasn’t in on the plot) saw a man who resembled Oswald.

3 shall casing found on the S E Corner , The Rifle found on the S W Corner a Rifle mind you that was by the FBI own statement, ''One Which didnt match the Italian Carcano Rifle the Warren Commission said Oswald used to shoot and killed JFK.

The shell casings and the rifle were found at the same window. How have you got them on different corners?

The Rifle is everything ,think about it, Its been proven it was the German Mauser Rifle shown being carried out of the TSBD, its the German Mauser Rifle the FBI said they found in the the S W corner TSBD ,its the German Mauser Rifle being held up in the Dallas Police Dept hallway , yet the Warren Comission said Oswald killed Kennedy with HIS ITALIAN CARCANO . This is why everything in the Warren Commission Report that claims Oswald killed Kennedy is based on a lie .

It hasn’t been proved. Are you making this up?. Do you really think that plotters would have been so mind-bogglingly, earth-shattering moronic that they would parade a different rifle in front of the watching world, hoping by some miracle that no one would spot it? You can’t believe that surely Fishy?

But most of us already new that.


Sourse

''The Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald'' 24th Nov 2022

I haven’t ‘scooted’ around anything Fishy. Equally I could say that no one has addressed my issues about the the potentially disastrous risk of Oswald being left free to talk, the horribly risky Grassy Knoll fence location, the complete absence of an escape plan, the completely pointless alleged setting up of the murder of Tippit, the odds of conspirators just happening to find a man with rifle training who was willing to kill the President and who just happens to work at the TSBD (a location that had only recently become convenient due to the altering of the route) or, if it’s being alleged that he didn’t fire, why did he bring his alleged ‘curtain rods’ to work with him?

If this was a conspiracy then it was created and managed by the biggest bunch of morons that you could wish to find. All that it needed was a trained killer or maybe even 2, a high powered rifle, and a room in any of the numerous building on the route. Escape plan in place, game over. Minimum tongues to keep quiet, maximum efficiency. But no, we’re supposed to believe that these geniuses arsed about ordering guns for Oswald under an assumed name, then somehow sneaked them on to a floor where people worked (not into a room though..into a completely open floor!) and then they placed a gun man where any number of people could have seen him or even photographed or filmed his as they’d have known that a visit from the President would mean cameras (and pointed in that direction!) then they let this bloke wander about to get arrested hoping that he’d keep his mouth shut. And 2 guns both traceable to Oswald!!

We can, and theorists do, spend years nitpicking over small details about which there are always 2 sides to (the conspiracy theorists are always the loudest and most numerous though) But the sheer unlikelihood of a conspiracy, the massively pointless riskiness, the bungling incompetence, the reliance on luck. If people stopped obsessing about debatable details, took a step back, then they might see how unlikely this is.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m just about to head out but I had a quick look at Bugliosi’s section on the rifle (the part about the CBS gun tests) I’ll just quote a short paragraph (the parts in brackets are my own except for the one that says - ‘Oswald’s accuracy’):

” All using a telescopic sight, which we know is slower than the iron sights, (Bugliosi isn’t alone in suspecting that Oswald used the iron sights) the average time of eleven riflemen to fire 3 shots was 5.6 seconds, much faster than the 8.4 seconds we know Oswald had (per the Zapruder film) And one rifleman hit 2 out of three targets (Oswald’s accuracy) in “slightly less than 5 seconds.” A weapons engineer had the best score, making three out of three hits in 5.2 seconds, meaning he was operating the bolt and firing accurately every 1.7 seconds, clearly besting Oswald’s marksmanship on November 22, 1963.”

So much for the ‘never repeated’ claim. Strange how these myths take hold?

And let’s not forget, Oswald’s army record classed him as a ‘sharpshooter.’ When Kennedy was hot in the back he was only 59 yards away and only 80 yards away for the head shot.

Major Eugene D Anderson, assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch of the Marine Corps, stated that the shot to Kennedy’s head was “not a particularly difficult shot” and “Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.” A sergeant in the same Corps said that Oswald would be considered ‘an excellent shot’ by civilian standards and by Marine Corps standards ‘a good shot, slightly above average’ and that the head shot would have been an easy one.

[cobalt]

HS,
There are indeed always two interpretations to the evidence and if those who reject the lone gunman theory are indeed the loudest advocates then you are going a fair way to redressing the balance. I can’t see that quoting Bugliosi as an authority is any more convincing than quoting Jim Garrison. And I doubt either attorney would have considered attention to detail ‘nitpicking.’
Much of your previous post at 10.10 seemed based on the assumption that Oswald was the lone assassin so that you ended up answering rhetorical questions set by yourself. I’ll deal with a few. Apologies if I resort to making assertions for reasons of brevity.

1. There WAS an escape plan and it succeeded. It’s just that it didn’t involve Oswald.

2. Oswald was not supposed to be free to talk, I agree. No proper record was taken of his interviews following arrest so there is no reliable evidence of what he admitted, alleged or denied. Which includes stuff about ‘curtain rods.’

3. The slow turn required on Elm Street made that an ideal spot for any assassination. The planned JFK visit to Dallas had been under consideration for almost a year before the fateful day. That’s plenty time to plan an assassination.

4. Your point about trained killers leaving not a trace is very probably near to the truth. But that could never have been acceptable to the American public so a ‘patsy’ had to be provided to make the narrative palatable.

[FISHY1118]

I haven’t ‘scooted’ around anything Fishy. Equally I could say that no one has addressed my issues about the the potentially disastrous risk of Oswald being left free to talk, the horribly risky Grassy Knoll fence location, the complete absence of an escape plan, the completely pointless alleged setting up of the murder of Tippit, the odds of conspirators just happening to find a man with rifle training who was willing to kill the President and who just happens to work at the TSBD (a location that had only recently become convenient due to the altering of the route) or, if it’s being alleged that he didn’t fire, why did he bring his alleged ‘curtain rods’ to work with him?

If this was a conspiracy then it was created and managed by the biggest bunch of morons that you could wish to find. All that it needed was a trained killer or maybe even 2, a high powered rifle, and a room in any of the numerous building on the route. Escape plan in place, game over. Minimum tongues to keep quiet, maximum efficiency. But no, we’re supposed to believe that these geniuses arsed about ordering guns for Oswald under an assumed name, then somehow sneaked them on to a floor where people worked (not into a room though..into a completely open floor!) and then they placed a gun man where any number of people could have seen him or even photographed or filmed his as they’d have known that a visit from the President would mean cameras (and pointed in that direction!) then they let this bloke wander about to get arrested hoping that he’d keep his mouth shut. And 2 guns both traceable to Oswald!!

We can, and theorists do, spend years nitpicking over small details about which there are always 2 sides to (the conspiracy theorists are always the loudest and most numerous though) But the sheer unlikelihood of a conspiracy, the massively pointless riskiness, the bungling incompetence, the reliance on luck. If people stopped obsessing about debatable details, took a step back, then they might see how unlikely this is.

''It hasn’t been proved. Are you making this up?. Do you really think that plotters would have been so mind-bogglingly, earth-shattering moronic that they would parade a different rifle in front of the watching world, hoping by some miracle that no one would spot it? You can’t believe that surely Fishy?'

This is a totally ridiculous statement, nobody knew at the time what was going on Herlock, this was playing out in real time .These events were happening one after the other, they had no idea at the time the rifle they found wasnt Oswalds ,it wasnt until later they realized it wasnt so of course their going to try to show the world the murder weapon just as they did believing infact it belonged to Oswald . Jeeez Louise its not rocket science mate .



Herlock its not made up at all it exactly what happen, let your own eyes see it, the FBI own own sworn agent affidavit claimed it as a different rifle . You can see it being taken out of the TSBD as clear as day, its not Oswalds Carcano Rifle . Source ''The Innocence of Lee Havey Oswald'' i suggest you reseach it, [but you wont]


''The shell casings and the rifle were found at the same window. How have you got them on different corners?''

The casing were found at 1.03 pm the Rifle at 1.22pm on the same floor, not in the same spot, Seymour Weitzman claimed he located it in the opposite corner of the building hence the 19 min time difference between the finding of the shellls and the casings


''He didn’t. He fired from the other corner, where the rifle was found. Dowland was either mistaken or an attention seeking liar. There was enough of them. Also, Rowland also claimed that he’d seen an ‘elderly negro’ in ‘Oswald’s’ window yet there was no elderly negro on that floor so that places a huge question mark over what he saw. Brennan however (who I assume wasn’t in on the plot) saw a man who resembled Oswald.''



The Rowlands were not attention seeking, nor did they lie , he reported an African American visable in the window next to another man just as Brennan did with his sighting of Oswald. No one else saw Oswald on the sixth floor.

How would anyone know a black man wasnt on the 6th floor at that time if they werent there themself to check ? For the record you could argue that a black man wasnt ''supposed'' to be on the 6th floor, but according the Rowlands he was, just as Oswald was for Brennan . So your argument there is pretty weak .

For the first 36 hours after the Assassination the murder weapon was a ''German Mauser'' bolt action rifle confimed by the FBI with no prints of Oswald on it.

Then it suddenly Morphed into a Italian Carcano Rifle with a smuged Oswald print on it . Conspiracy 101 Booooom .

[FISHY1118]

I’m just about to head out but I had a quick look at Bugliosi’s section on the rifle (the part about the CBS gun tests) I’ll just quote a short paragraph (the parts in brackets are my own except for the one that says - ‘Oswald’s accuracy’):

” All using a telescopic sight, which we know is slower than the iron sights, (Bugliosi isn’t alone in suspecting that Oswald used the iron sights) the average time of eleven riflemen to fire 3 shots was 5.6 seconds, much faster than the 8.4 seconds we know Oswald had (per the Zapruder film) And one rifleman hit 2 out of three targets (Oswald’s accuracy) in “slightly less than 5 seconds.” A weapons engineer had the best score, making three out of three hits in 5.2 seconds, meaning he was operating the bolt and firing accurately every 1.7 seconds, clearly besting Oswald’s marksmanship on November 22, 1963.”

So much for the ‘never repeated’ claim. Strange how these myths take hold?

And let’s not forget, Oswald’s army record classed him as a ‘sharpshooter.’ When Kennedy was hot in the back he was only 59 yards away and only 80 yards away for the head shot.

Major Eugene D Anderson, assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch of the Marine Corps, stated that the shot to Kennedy’s head was “not a particularly difficult shot” and “Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.” A sergeant in the same Corps said that Oswald would be considered ‘an excellent shot’ by civilian standards and by Marine Corps standards ‘a good shot, slightly above average’ and that the head shot would have been an easy one.

Also strange how people accept these claims above the two best Snipers of the Vietnam War years would couldnt repeat the shots that Oswald supposily made .

Just for interest sake the term ''Marksman'' is the lowest rank in the chain when it comes to sniper firing ablity.