JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[cobalt]

Did Bugliosi touch upon the incomprehensibly varying accounts of Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language?

On arrival in the USSR Oswald had no ability in Russian, something that aroused the suspicions of the KGB since they assumed a genuine defector would have made the effort to acquire some. Nor did Oswald show much enthusiasm during the regular language lessons provided by the Soviets. Naturally enough they suspected his ignorance of Russian might be feigned so he was constantly monitored and had his apartment ‘bugged,’ but if it was all an act then he seems to have carried it off successfully.

The Oswald who arrived back in the USA with his wife would have acquired decent conversational Russian and possibly slightly higher ability in reading. Yet émigré Russians have described a man who felt more comfortable on occasion discussing politics and literature in Russian. One claimed he spoke near perfect Russian with a clear command of idioms and expressions. Clearly either these witnesses are not telling the truth or they were speaking to someone else. No one with Oswald’s known educational background, even someone with a talent for picking up new languages, could have reached that level inside a couple of years.

[Joshua Rogan]

12 .13 sec into Georges youtube link , 1. 4x18 scope , 2. inverted groove down both sides of the weapon , 3. strap clips on the weapon are on the side of the rifle butt and top of the rifle. This is the German Mauser ,

Oswalds weapon 4x3/4'' scope , no grooves on the side of the rifle , strap clips on the underside of the rifle butt also at the other end underside clip This is the Italian cancarno

There different weapons .

The details of the Carcano you're quoting appear to be from the picture in the advertisment. If so, then these are indeed different weapons.

The model shown in the advert (M91 TS) lacks finger grooves and has sling points on the underside. It also has an adjustable rear sight. However, Oswald (or Hidell) received the M91/38 model, which does have finger grooves on both sides of the foregrip, both sling points on the left hand side and a fixed rear sight. It also has a slightly (4") longer barrel, and thus longer overall length (40" v 36")

The 4x3/4" scope quoted in the advert is simply an imperial description of the 4x18 mm Japanese scope supplied.

[Joshua Rogan]

Did Bugliosli touch upon the incomprehensibly varying accounts of Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language?

On arrival in the USSR Oswald had no ability in Russian, something that aroused the suspicions of the KGB since they assumed a genuine defector would have made the effort to acquire some. Nor did Oswald show much enthusiasm during the regular language lessons provided by the Soviets. Naturally enough they suspected his ignorance of Russian might be feigned so he was constantly monitored and had his apartment ‘bugged,’ but if it was all an act then he seems to have carried it off successfully.

The Oswald who arrived back in the USA with his wife would have acquired decent conversational Russian and possibly slightly higher ability in reading. Yet émigré Russians have described a man who felt more comfortable on occasion discussing politics and literature in Russian. One claimed he spoke near perfect Russian with a clear command of idioms and expressions. Clearly either these witnesses are not telling the truth or they were speaking to someone else. No one with Oswald’s known educational background, even someone with a talent for picking up new languages, could have reached that level inside a couple of years.

I seem to recall that, after Oswald visited the Cuban embassy, correspondence between that and the Soviet embassy described his russian as almost incomprehensible, or words to that effect.

[Joshua Rogan]

Once again, look at the forensics. Chapman let Lennon go past him and then called to him. Lennon turned slightly to the right to look over his shoulder and Chapman opened fire with a .38 calibre Charter Arms snub nose revolver. But the autopsy showed that the fatal shot came from the left and to the side of Lennon. The energy release in Lennon's body indicated a 357 magnum was used for this shot and the concierge just happened to have just departed though a doorway in that direction. The .38 and 357 handguns use the same projectiles but the case for the 357 is longer to prevent it being fired in a .38 pistol as the vastly higher load in the 357 would destroy a .38 pistol. While the name is confusing. the .38 fires a projectile that is .357 in diameter.

I seem to remember seeing a TV interview with Chapman, describing how he emptied his gun into Lennon, but don't recall him mentioning anyone else shooting at the same time. Odd.

[cobalt]

I think the 'almost incomprehensible' Russian quote comes from an FBI intercept at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City. The FBI concluded that the speaker phoning the embassy was clearly not Oswald but someone pretending to be him.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think the 'almost incomprehensible' Russian quote comes from an FBI intercept at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City. The FBI concluded that the speaker phoning the embassy was clearly not Oswald but someone pretending to be him.

Ah. Fair enough.

[Camus]

I watched the documentary about Josiah Thompson's theories linked in this thread last night. I was impressed that he was only interested in how, not why. His reasoning and evidence is compelling. Very interested in getting his latest book.

I particularly found the acoustic evidence fascinating and the revelation that the channel 2 audio used in comparison is edited and not the full raw audio. Also the pattern of debris from the head wound is compelling as is the idea of a second head shot from behind directly after the first.

I don't see that the 'conspiracy' has to be that big. It could be just two people with a major beef against Kennedy, ie Oswald and someone else working in concert, Oswald at the TSBD and the other behind the fence on the grassy knoll. I could also believe that someone who believed very strongly in a cause wouldn't blab if caught.

I could believe that Ruby was used by the government or the Dallas police to execute Oswald so there wouldn't be a trial, especially after hearing the phone calls where LBJ instructs to push the lone gunman theory (and I can just about understand why he'd do it, it could easily have ended up as WWIII if accusations against the USSR had been actively pursued at the time).

In regards to Herlock's assertion that the grassy knoll is a high risk place for a sniper, I agree, but they had some pretty stupendous luck, the police never took names or license plate numbers of any of the cars parked there and never searched any of them either.

In the end, like Jack the Ripper, I don't think we'll ever know the truth, but I'm leaning towards at least two gunmen working in tandem, one being Oswald at the TSBD and another behind the fence on the grassy knoll. The simplest explanation for a conspiracy are two delusional nutters working together. It works without having to drag the CIA, KGB etc into it.

[GBinOz]

I seem to remember seeing a TV interview with Chapman, describing how he emptied his gun into Lennon, but don't recall him mentioning anyone else shooting at the same time. Odd.

Hi Joshua,

It's not what Chapman says. It's what is said in the autopsy and forensics reports, which was that the fatal shot came from Lennon's left and slightly in front of him. Chapman was behind Lennon and to the right.

RFK's autopsy stated that the fatal shot was just behind the right ear, in an upward direction and at a range of 1-3 inches. Sirhan was in front of RFK and to his left and was 3-6 feet away. RFK junior has examined all the evidence and has stated that he doesn't believe Sirhan fired the shot that killed his father.

My contention is that the medical and forensic evidence does not support the government narrative for JFK, RFK and Lennon.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Come on George. Lennon was killed by Chapman alone. RFK was killed by Sirhan Sirhan alone, Martin Luther King was killed by James Earl Ray alone. Gandhi was killed by Nathuram Godse alone. No conspiracies here.

Herlock, really???

This is a sketch of the 3 shots that hit RFK according to the autopsy and forensics:


The fatal shot was the one in the centre, range 1-3 inches. There were 13 bullets found. Sirhan's revolver held only 8. But you choose to rigidly believe the authorities story regardless of evidence, so I can only reflect on the statement in your signature.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

I watched the documentary about Josiah Thompson's theories linked in this thread last night. I was impressed that he was only interested in how, not why. His reasoning and evidence is compelling. Very interested in getting his latest book.

I particularly found the acoustic evidence fascinating and the revelation that the channel 2 audio used in comparison is edited and not the full raw audio. Also the pattern of debris from the head wound is compelling as is the idea of a second head shot from behind directly after the first.

I don't see that the 'conspiracy' has to be that big. It could be just two people with a major beef against Kennedy, ie Oswald and someone else working in concert, Oswald at the TSBD and the other behind the fence on the grassy knoll. I could also believe that someone who believed very strongly in a cause wouldn't blab if caught.

I could believe that Ruby was used by the government or the Dallas police to execute Oswald so there wouldn't be a trial, especially after hearing the phone calls where LBJ instructs to push the lone gunman theory (and I can just about understand why he'd do it, it could easily have ended up as WWIII if accusations against the USSR had been actively pursued at the time).

In regards to Herlock's assertion that the grassy knoll is a high risk place for a sniper, I agree, but they had some pretty stupendous luck, the police never took names or license plate numbers of any of the cars parked there and never searched any of them either.

In the end, like Jack the Ripper, I don't think we'll ever know the truth, but I'm leaning towards at least two gunmen working in tandem, one being Oswald at the TSBD and another behind the fence on the grassy knoll. The simplest explanation for a conspiracy are two delusional nutters working together. It works without having to drag the CIA, KGB etc into it.

Hi Camus your definately on the right track with what LBJ told Earl Warren, thats for sure .And i agree with most of what you say except that they were never able to prove Oswald actually fired any rifle that day . That comes straight from an FBI report the day after the assassination.

[FISHY1118]

Stop Press…

A recently discovered photograph of the man that conspiracy theorists believe left the wrong kind of rifle at the crime seen for the police to display before the whole world. Apparently they almost caught him when his car fell apart on the freeway but when the police officer went over to him he got a custard pie in the face and the suspect made his getaway on the back of a passing horse ridden by a girl in a leotard.

Conspirators have all the luck!

Ahhh Brillient Herlock , i thought you were above this kind of nonsense , silly me . Now take note George, this is how Apoligist deflect , detract, and mock , what they clearly refuse to acknowegde..... ''The Facts'' . Its what they have been doing since trying to defend the undefendable Warren Commission report for 60 years.

Two different Rilfles = Conspiracy

[FISHY1118]

The details of the Carcano you're quoting appear to be from the picture in the advertisment. If so, then these are indeed different weapons.

The model shown in the advert (M91 TS) lacks finger grooves and has sling points on the underside. It also has an adjustable rear sight. However, Oswald (or Hidell) received the M91/38 model, which does have finger grooves on both sides of the foregrip, both sling points on the left hand side and a fixed rear sight. It also has a slightly (4") longer barrel, and thus longer overall length (40" v 36")

The 4x3/4" scope quoted in the advert is simply an imperial description of the 4x18 mm Japanese scope supplied.

Hi Josh , Im not sure where you got them Model numbers from, as they dont Correspond with the Advert for the Italian Cancarno Oswald purchased.

Happy to discuss the details of the different rifles when the correct model numbers match .

[DJA]

If anyone has not watched Oliver Stone's 1991 epic "JFK",it is currently on Disney+.

Well worth the three hours,despite a few errors.

[FISHY1118]

"A number of objects found in the Texas School Book Depository Building following the assassination were processed for latent fingerprints by the FBI--in some cases, after they had been processed by the Dallas police. These objects included the homemade wrapping paper bag found near the southeast corner window; the C9766 rifle; three small cartons which were stacked near that window (which were marked "Box A," "Box B," and "Box C"), and a fourth carton resting on the floor nearby (marked "Box D"); the three 6.5- millimeter cartridge cases found near the window; and the cartridge found in the rifle. The results were as follows:

The paper bag. --The FBI developed a palmprint and a fingerprint on the paper bag by silver nitrate. These were compared with the fingerprints and palmprints of Lee Harvey Oswald taken by the Dallas police, and were found to have been made by the right palm and the left index finger of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The C2766 rifle. --The wood and metal of the rifle was absorbent, and not conducive to recording a good print. However, the Dallas police developed by powder some faint ridge formations on the metal magazine housing in front of the trigger and also developed by powder and lifted a latent palmprint from the underside of the barrel. The faint ridge formations were insufficient for purposes of effecting an identification, but the latent palmprint was identified as the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The cartons.--Using the silver nitrate method, the FBI developed nine identifiable latent fingerprints and four identifiable latent palm-prints on Box A, seven identifiable fingerprints and two identifiable palmprints on Box B, and two identifiable fingerprints and one identifiable palmprint on Box C. One of the fingerprints on Box A was identified as the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of the palmprints on Box A was identified as the left palm-print of Lee Harvey Oswald. All the remaining prints on Box A were the palmprints of R. L. Studebaker, a. Dallas police officer, and Forest L. Lucy, an FBI clerk, who shipped the cartons from Dallas to the FBI Laboratory in Washington, D.C. and fingerprints of Detective Studebaker. All but one of the fingerprints on Box B belonged to Studebaker and Lucy and one palmprint was that of Studebaker. The fingerprints on Box C were those of Studebaker and Lucy and the palmprint was Studebaker's. One palmprint on Box B was unidentified.

The FBI developed two fingerprints on Box D by silver nitrate, and the Dallas police developed a palmprint on Box D by powder. The fingerprints belonged to Lucy. The palmprint was identified as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. While the age of a print cannot, be generally determined, this palmprint must have been relatively fresh, because the carton was constructed of cardboard, an absorbent material, and if a long period had elapsed between the time the print was made and the time it was powdered, the perspiration would have been absorbed into the cardboard, and the print could not have been developed by powder. Tests run by the FBI show that usually a latent impression on such cardboard cannot be developed by powder more than 24 hours after it is made. Latona felt that the maximum age of the palmprint on Box D at the time of development (which was shortly after the assassination), would have been 3 days; Mandella felt that the maximum time would have been a day and a half.

The three cartridge cases and the cartridge case found in the No prints were developed on the cartridge found in the rifle or on the three expended cartridge cases. "




"During the course of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald following the assassination a paraffin test was performed by the Dallas police on both of his hands and his right cheek. The paraffin cast of Oswald's hands reacted positively to the test. The cast of the right cheek showed no reaction."

"A revolver is so constructed that there is a space between the cylinder, which bears the chambers, and the barrel. When a revolver is fired, nitrate-bearing gases escape through this space and may leave residues on the. hand. In a rifle, however, there is no gap between the chamber and the barrel, and one would therefore not expect nitrates to be deposited upon a person's hands or cheeks as a result of his firing a rifle."

I suggest you watch ''The Innocents of Lee Harvey Oswald'' ... 19.20 to 21.40. It contains This FBI version of an Official report, signed mind you by J Edgar Hoover on the 23rd of Nov 1963 the very next day which shows exactly why LBJ made the Warren Commision make sure a alone gunman was responsible for kennedys murder.

Only then did the FBI go into full swing , the rest is history.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Josh , Im not sure where you got them Model numbers from, as they dont Correspond with the Advert for the Italian Cancarno Oswald purchased.

Happy to discuss the details of the different rifles when the correct model numbers match .

Hmm. Perhaps you'd like to point out the model number in the advert that you're referring to.