JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[caz]

Many assassins believe they are doing something that would make them a hero.

I thought of John Lennon in this context, Herlock. I imagine there will have been conspiracy theories surrounding his death too, as he was a bit of a marmite figure.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought of John Lennon in this context, Herlock. I imagine there will have been conspiracy theories surrounding his death too, as he was a bit of a marmite figure.

Love,

Caz
X

There have Caz. Including one blaming the CIA.

[caz]

How can the plan be so poor when it succeeded? Sixty years later and still no one knows who did it. The grassy knoll was only one firing position. How can it be poor? The shooter succeeded and he remains anonymous to this day.

Surely that is classic conspiracy thinking, George. You start with the presumption of a plan, and then argue that it succeeded because nobody really knows who, if anyone, was involved - besides Oswald, naturally.

You don't consider that you'd have the same result if, instead of remaining 'anonymous', this other gunman never existed, and there was no 'plan', good or poor, to succeed or fail.

It's the same with Lechmere theorists. He succeeded in not getting caught so he must have done a good job of presenting as an innocent witness.

He would have succeeded in not getting caught if he was an innocent witness.

Same result, very different reasoning to get there.

Love,

Caz
X

[GBinOz]

There have Caz. Including one blaming the CIA.

Once again, look at the forensics. Chapman let Lennon go past him and then called to him. Lennon turned slightly to the right to look over his shoulder and Chapman opened fire with a .38 calibre Charter Arms snub nose revolver. But the autopsy showed that the fatal shot came from the left and to the side of Lennon. The energy release in Lennon's body indicated a 357 magnum was used for this shot and the concierge just happened to have just departed though a doorway in that direction. The .38 and 357 handguns use the same projectiles but the case for the 357 is longer to prevent it being fired in a .38 pistol as the vastly higher load in the 357 would destroy a .38 pistol. While the name is confusing. the .38 fires a projectile that is .357 in diameter.

[FISHY1118]

I still have around 45 books on the assassination. I believe that only 2 of them go for Oswald alone (Posner and Bugliosi) For the 2 or 3 years that I was really interested in the case I was convinced that there was a conspiracy. I re-evaluated after reading Posner (yes I know that his book has been heavily criticised - and rightly so, even Bugliosi criticises him) I then began to think about how likely was this magnitude of conspiracy. How likely was it that anyone would have involved Oswald in their plans? Why was the plan so poor? Why use a poor spot like the Grassy Knoll? Why no escape plan for Oswald? Why didn’t they just use one or two anonymous, highly trained snipers/assassins? This and other things led me to doubt conspiracy. Then as I continued to read the increasingly bizarre claims I came to feel that there was a whole, obsessive conspiracy bandwagon going on where every singly point is disagreed with. So it’s just my opinion that a disaffected guy like Oswald decided to kill the President and was resigned to not getting away with it. When he raised fist sign it appeared to show that he was proud of what he’d done. Many assassins believe they are doing something that would make them a hero.

Well i was 12 when i did my first high school assignment on the jfk assassination ,and yes i have many books, read 100s of articles and watched dozens upon dozens of documenties over 45 years, right up to the most recent one last year.

What youve mention above is not evidence that he acted alone, merely reasons why you think he did ,theres a different . Trying to justify why there couldnt be a conspiracy because of this may have happened or why did he do this after wards or that wasnt right i believe is pointless . Like George suggested , its the evidence that clears Oswald and the proof that a conspiracy is abundantly clear and readily available if you know where to look .


Some may use the magic bullet , others the grassy knoll , whatever, theres to many descrepancies in the whole event to mention them , and yes some of those may be argued either side, and it comes down to what you or me want to believe . But theres one where there can be no arguement , and no mistake, that says a conspiracy to cover up evidence that would have cleared oswald ,is the fact he did not use an Italian carcarno to shoot the president

As the Warren Commission said he did! ,in my book that equals Conspiracy 101 .


Im looking at the original video footage on the 22nd Nov 1963 the murder weapon was discovered, an agent holds up the Rifle on the 6th floor tsbd for all to see , turns it side on and back [ feel free to check it out ]

The same day 22/11 /1963 at the Dallas police dept on display a clear as day, photo of the Rifle they clainmed Oswald used to kill Kennedy sits on a table with a white back ground for effect . With a cardboard sign and the date 22/11/ 1963 written on it.

Now only if your interested mind you, open a split screen and look at the Rifles side by side [pause the video one of couse ] .

They are two different weapons with multiple differences when you look closely at all their characteristics side by side. I count at least 4 . [one a ''no brainer'' pardon the pun]

How is it possible two different Rifles, both displayed on the same day in history by Govenment Officials and the Dallas police dept be claimed to be the same weapon by the Warren Commission ?

[caz]

There have Caz. Including one blaming the CIA.

Why am I not surprised?

[GBinOz]

Surely that is classic conspiracy thinking, George. You start with the presumption of a plan, and then argue that it succeeded because nobody really knows who, if anyone, was involved - besides Oswald, naturally.

You don't consider that you'd have the same result if, instead of remaining 'anonymous', this other gunman never existed, and there was no 'plan', good or poor, to succeed or fail.

It's the same with Lechmere theorists. He succeeded in not getting caught so he must have done a good job of presenting as an innocent witness.

He would have succeeded in not getting caught if he was an innocent witness.

Same result, very different reasoning to get there.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz,

I didn't start with said plan - Herlock did and I was commenting on his comments. And I'm not sure how much Oswald knew. Kennedy was targeted by multiple gunman. The medical and forensic evidence puts that beyond doubt, and each enquiry that is held moves closer to that conclusion. I don't see apologists using forensics or medical evidence, or even eyewitness evidence, only the speculative "Why would they do this" or "what if that happened" or "how could they control these aspects".

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

hi george
thanks for posting those links unfortunately i cant open them as it asks me to sign in, which i cant do.

but it seems to me there is no evidence for two head shots. the zapruder film clearly shows him being struck only twice. tje first through the neck, where you can see him hunch forward and grab his neck and then the head shot.

Hi Abby

Can you use YouTube for other videos? If so search JFK Unsolved: The Real Conspiracies and

JFK: Absolute Proof: The Killing of a President

The new copy of the ZP is from high definition scans of the original film and are much clearer than you may have seen before. It is also synchronised with the motorcycle radio recording.

Hope this helps as I'm sure that you will find the contents of the videos most informative as they include information from the recently released government files.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stop Press…

A recently discovered photograph of the man that conspiracy theorists believe left the wrong kind of rifle at the crime seen for the police to display before the whole world. Apparently they almost caught him when his car fell apart on the freeway but when the police officer went over to him he got a custard pie in the face and the suspect made his getaway on the back of a passing horse ridden by a girl in a leotard.

Conspirators have all the luck!

[Fiver]

Did the Warren Commission ever show proof that LHO fired ''The rifle'' that killed jfk .

"A number of objects found in the Texas School Book Depository Building following the assassination were processed for latent fingerprints by the FBI--in some cases, after they had been processed by the Dallas police. These objects included the homemade wrapping paper bag found near the southeast corner window; the C9766 rifle; three small cartons which were stacked near that window (which were marked "Box A," "Box B," and "Box C"), and a fourth carton resting on the floor nearby (marked "Box D"); the three 6.5- millimeter cartridge cases found near the window; and the cartridge found in the rifle. The results were as follows:

The paper bag. --The FBI developed a palmprint and a fingerprint on the paper bag by silver nitrate. These were compared with the fingerprints and palmprints of Lee Harvey Oswald taken by the Dallas police, and were found to have been made by the right palm and the left index finger of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The C2766 rifle. --The wood and metal of the rifle was absorbent, and not conducive to recording a good print. However, the Dallas police developed by powder some faint ridge formations on the metal magazine housing in front of the trigger and also developed by powder and lifted a latent palmprint from the underside of the barrel. The faint ridge formations were insufficient for purposes of effecting an identification, but the latent palmprint was identified as the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The cartons.--Using the silver nitrate method, the FBI developed nine identifiable latent fingerprints and four identifiable latent palm-prints on Box A, seven identifiable fingerprints and two identifiable palmprints on Box B, and two identifiable fingerprints and one identifiable palmprint on Box C. One of the fingerprints on Box A was identified as the right index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of the palmprints on Box A was identified as the left palm-print of Lee Harvey Oswald. All the remaining prints on Box A were the palmprints of R. L. Studebaker, a. Dallas police officer, and Forest L. Lucy, an FBI clerk, who shipped the cartons from Dallas to the FBI Laboratory in Washington, D.C. and fingerprints of Detective Studebaker. All but one of the fingerprints on Box B belonged to Studebaker and Lucy and one palmprint was that of Studebaker. The fingerprints on Box C were those of Studebaker and Lucy and the palmprint was Studebaker's. One palmprint on Box B was unidentified.

The FBI developed two fingerprints on Box D by silver nitrate, and the Dallas police developed a palmprint on Box D by powder. The fingerprints belonged to Lucy. The palmprint was identified as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald. While the age of a print cannot, be generally determined, this palmprint must have been relatively fresh, because the carton was constructed of cardboard, an absorbent material, and if a long period had elapsed between the time the print was made and the time it was powdered, the perspiration would have been absorbed into the cardboard, and the print could not have been developed by powder. Tests run by the FBI show that usually a latent impression on such cardboard cannot be developed by powder more than 24 hours after it is made. Latona felt that the maximum age of the palmprint on Box D at the time of development (which was shortly after the assassination), would have been 3 days; Mandella felt that the maximum time would have been a day and a half.

The three cartridge cases and the cartridge case found in the No prints were developed on the cartridge found in the rifle or on the three expended cartridge cases. "

Did later paraffin test conclude he did not fire any rifle on the 22nd Nov .Yes

"During the course of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald following the assassination a paraffin test was performed by the Dallas police on both of his hands and his right cheek. The paraffin cast of Oswald's hands reacted positively to the test. The cast of the right cheek showed no reaction."

"A revolver is so constructed that there is a space between the cylinder, which bears the chambers, and the barrel. When a revolver is fired, nitrate-bearing gases escape through this space and may leave residues on the. hand. In a rifle, however, there is no gap between the chamber and the barrel, and one would therefore not expect nitrates to be deposited upon a person's hands or cheeks as a result of his firing a rifle."

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once again, look at the forensics. Chapman let Lennon go past him and then called to him. Lennon turned slightly to the right to look over his shoulder and Chapman opened fire with a .38 calibre Charter Arms snub nose revolver. But the autopsy showed that the fatal shot came from the left and to the side of Lennon. The energy release in Lennon's body indicated a 357 magnum was used for this shot and the concierge just happened to have just departed though a doorway in that direction. The .38 and 357 handguns use the same projectiles but the case for the 357 is longer to prevent it being fired in a .38 pistol as the vastly higher load in the 357 would destroy a .38 pistol. While the name is confusing. the .38 fires a projectile that is .357 in diameter.

Come on George. Lennon was killed by Chapman alone. RFK was killed by Sirhan Sirhan alone, Martin Luther King was killed by James Earl Ray alone. Gandhi was killed by Nathuram Godse alone. No conspiracies here.

[Fiver]

Also the FBI lab said that the firing pin on Oswald’s revolver was defective and would not strike the cartridges with sufficient force to have fired them.

They were able to fire multiple test shorts with the revolver, so clearly there was nothing wrong with the firing pin.

"When Oswald was arrested six live cartridges were found in the revolver. Three were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated lead bullets, and three were Remington-Peters .38 Specials, loaded with lead bullets. Five additional live cartridges were found in Oswald's pocket, all of which were Western .38 Specials, loaded with copper-coated bullets. The Western and Remington-Peters .88 Special cartridges are virtually identical--the copper coating on the Western bullets is not a full jacket, but only a gilding metal, put on principally for sales appeal.

Four expended cartridge cases were found near the site of the Tippit killing. 68 Two of these cartridge cases were Remington-Peters .38 Specials and two were Western .38 Specials. Based on a comparison with test cartridge cases fired in the V510210 revolver, the four cartridge cases were identified as having been fired in the V510210 revolver.

Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. In Nicol's opinion one of the four bullets could be positively identified with test bullets fired from V510210 revolver, and the other three could have been fired from that revolver. In Cunningham's opinion all four bullets could have been fired from the V510210 revolver, but none could be positively identified to the revolver --that is, in his opinion the bullets bore the revolver's rifling characteristics, but no conclusion could be drawn on the basis of microscopic characteristics. Cunningham did not conclude that the bullets had not been fired from the revolver, since he found that consecutive bullets fired in the revolver by the FBI could not even be identified with each other under the microscope. The apparent reasons for this was that while the revolver had been rechambered for a .38 Special cartridge, it had not been rebarreled for a .38 Special bullet. The barrel was therefore slightly oversized for a .38 Special bullet, which has a smaller diameter than a .38 S. & W. bullet. This would cause the passage of a .38 Special bullet through the barrel to be erratic, resulting in inconsistent microscopic markings.

Based on the number of grooves, groove widths, groove spacing, and knurling on the four recovered bullets, three were copper-coated lead bullets of Western-Winchester manufacture (Western and Winchester are divisions of the same company), and the fourth was a lead bullet of Remington-Peters manufacture. This contrasts with the four recovered cartridge cases, which consisted of two Remington-Peters and two Westerns. There are several possible explanations for this variance: (1) the killer fired five cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and two of which were Remington-Peters; one Remington-Peters bullet missed Tippit; and a Western-Winchester cartridge case and the Remington-Peters bullet that missed were simply not found. (2) The killer fired only four cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and one of which was Remington-Peters; prior to the shooting the killer had an expended Remington-Peters cartridge case in his revolver, which was ejected with the three Western- Winchester and one Remington-Peters cases; and one of the Western-Winchester cases was not found. (3) The killer was using hand-loaded ammunition, that is, ammunition which is made with used cartridge cases to save money; thus he might have loaded one make of bullet into another make of cartridge case. This third possibility is extremely unlikely, because when a cartridge is fired the cartridge case expands, and before it can be reused it must be resized. There was, however, no evidence that any of the four recovered cartridge cases had been resized.

Makes sense when you consider he tried to fire the revolver in the theatre but it never discharged !!

"Officer McDonald of the Dallas police, who arrested Oswald, stated that he had struggled with Oswald for possession of the revolver and that in the course of the struggle, "I heard the snap of the hammer, and the pistol crossed my left cheek ... the primer of one round was dented on misfire at the time of the struggle. ..." However, none of the cartridges found in the revolver bore the impression of the revolver's firing pin. In addition, the revolver is so constructed that, the firing pin cannot strike a cartridge unless the hammer (which bears the firing pin) has first been drawn all the way back by a complete trigger pull. Had the hammer gone all the way back and then hit the cartridge, it is unlikely that the cartridge would have mis-fired. It would be possible for a person to interject his finger between the hammer and the cartridge, but the spring driving the hammer is a very strong one and the impact of the firing pin into a finger would be clearly felt. However, the cylinder and the trigger are interconnected and the trigger cannot be fully pulled back if the cylinder is grasped. Therefore, if Oswald had pulled on the trigger while McDonald was firmly grasping the cylinder, the revolver would not have fired, and if the gun was grabbed away at the same time the trigger would have snapped back with an audible sound. "

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Can you use YouTube for other videos? If so search JFK Unsolved: The Real Conspiracies and

JFK: Absolute Proof: The Killing of a President

The new copy of the ZP is from high definition scans of the original film and are much clearer than you may have seen before. It is also synchronised with the motorcycle radio recording.

Hope this helps as I'm sure that you will find the contents of the videos most informative as they include information from the recently released government files.

Cheers, George

Thank you George.
I will certainly check them out now-appreciate it.

[Fiver]

"Moving Target: JFK is a moving target. Targets can be hit all day long at that short range (approximately 81-meters (265-feet) when it’s static. But a moving target is more difficult to hit, especially a very precise aim & hit target like the head, the throat and from a higher elevation (a moving vertical angle shot) from the 6th floor (60-feet elevation). To date, NOBODY, NOBODY, one more time, NOBODY has ever replicated what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963. In 1967, CBS hired 11 professional marksmen to replicate Oswald’s marksmanship – again, NOBODY NOBODY could replicate what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963."

Laydon makes several errors in this statement.

CBS used local volunteers, not trained marksmen. Several of them were able to put 2 or more shots in target in less time than the estimated time between the first and third bullets being fired.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=FISHY1118;n803434]


Moving Target: JFK is a moving target. Targets can be hit all day long at that short range (approximately 81-meters (265-feet) when it’s static. But a moving target is more difficult to hit, especially a very precise aim & hit target like the head, the throat and from a higher elevation (a moving vertical angle shot) from the 6th floor (60-feet elevation). To date, NOBODY, NOBODY, one more time, NOBODY has ever replicated what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963. In 1967, CBS hired 11 professional marksmen to replicate Oswald’s marksmanship – again, NOBODY NOBODY could replicate what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963.

…………………………………

Firstly, yes a moving target is more difficult than a stationary one but, a) Oswald’s military record showed that he scored better at moving targets than stationary ones, b) after the first shot the Presidents car was moving almost directly away from the Oswald so there was no side to side movement. So the 2nd and 3rd shots were, in effect, either stationary or very close to it.

Secondly, the CBS recreation (which was much more accurate the Warren Commission’s) used an exact replica of Oswald’s gun, a tower with the height and angles worked out exactly and an FBI silhouette target moving along a rail at 11mph (the approximate speed of the car). Eleven volunteers were given time to practice at a range then they took turns firing at the target. They were compared with Oswald’s performance of 3 shots and 2 hits in 8.4 seconds.

One of the riflemen hit 2 out of 3 targets (like Oswald) in just under 5 seconds. A weapons engineer had the best score hitting 3 out of 3 (bettering Oswald) in 5.2 seconds (quicker than Oswald)

Im not 100% certain on this fact but I believe that the average time for the 3 shots was something like 5.6 seconds.

So to say that NOBODY, NOBODY could replicate Oswald’s performance is demonstrably untrue.