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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    neither George or Fishy have taken the time or effort to read Bugliosi’s 1600 page analysis of the case (including something like 2000 pages of endnotes and sources.) And why? Because these monumental piece of work is just speculation, surmise and supposition and short on scientific explanation according to someone that hasn’t bothered to read it!

    Unavoidable conclusion - that at the very least Oswald took the rifle into work.

    Did he fire it? A paraffin test said that he’d fired a gun.

    Then this innocent man scarpered, straight past his bus stop, got on the wrong bus, jumped off into a taxi then got dropped 4 blocks from his rooming house but walked back.
    I watched the YouTube video of Bugliosi promoting his book. Pontifications about keeping secrets, then "there's no evidence that Oswald had any connection of association with any of these groups" (see below), "assuming for the state of argument", "Oswald would have been one of the last people of earth the CIA would have gone to, why, he was not an expert shot, he was a good shot but not an expert shot" (seems to be arguing against Oswald being capable), "he had a $12 mail order rifle" (fact check please), "just the type of guy that the CIA would rely on to commit the biggest murder in history" (sarcastic remark but a good argument for why Oswald wasn't a trigger man). Then there's a bunch of speculation about "likelihoods" of how Oswald might have been disposed of, "does any rational person believe". Enough is enough. I'll add pontifications to speculation, surmise and supposition. And it is suggested that I devote hours to reading more of this outdated nonsense?

    "at the very least Oswald took the rifle into work". Doesn't prove he fired it or that he acted alone. I'm not disputing that he was involved in some way.

    The paraffin test showed residue on his hands, as it would if he fired a revolver, not on his face which would have been right next to the bolt mechanism on a rifle.

    If Oswald twigged he was being set up he would have made some evasive moves.

    And now, the smoking gun document, recently released, from the head of the CIA to the head of the Secret Service stating that "Oswald subject was trained by this agency under the cover of the office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments." This is from Groden's new book, "JFK: Absolute Proof" which contains 1000 photos, some of which have not previously been seen, and the latest released documents. IMO a far better buy and read than the outdated ramblings of a dinosaur.

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    It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

      actually the grassy knoll is not bad at all, and the closer you get to being on the rr bridge, and they are very close, the better shot you have. its on a hill/ overpass... your well above bystanders heads. the target is coming almost straight at you unimpeded by anything. and its an easy escape and easily accessible. the kill shot looks like thats exactly where it comes from.
      Hi Abby,

      James Barger did extensive acoustic experiments and established that the fatal head shot came from behind the picket fence, 8 feet (+/_ 6 inches) from the corner. This matches exactly with the dark shape in the Moorman photograph. I don't pretend to understand the methodology behind the acoustic determinations, but when the acknowledged world leader in this field says it is so, I am very reluctant to discard his evidence.

      I agree with you, the grassy knoll was a good shooting position. You look like a spectator (until the final moment) and everyone else is looking in the opposite direction, except Bowers and the Railway men on the triple overpass.

      Cheers, George
      It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

      Comment


      • For those that struggled to read the CIA document, here's a larger version:

        Click image for larger version

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        It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
          The defense would have crushed that made up nonsense LBJ had instructed with real scientific and real experimental evidence that shows he was innocent .
          Real scientific and real experimental evidence point towards Oswald's guilt. Eyewitness testimony, ballistics, photographic evidence, autopsy records, finger and palm prints, fiber evidence, analysis of bullet fragments, and purchase records all support that.

          "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

          "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

            Real scientific and real experimental evidence point towards Oswald's guilt. Eyewitness testimony, ballistics, photographic evidence, autopsy records, finger and palm prints, fiber evidence, analysis of bullet fragments, and purchase records all support that.
            Depends which side you wish to believe ,the warren commission , or everything that after which contradicts it .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              So you are immune to facts?

              The so-called Magic Bullet Theory isnt necessary. Science has proven, absolutely, categorically that the bullet trajectory lines up perfectly. Connolly was sitting lower than Kennedy and to his left. No issues at all.

              3 shots from behind. One missed, one hit Kennedy in the back, one was the head shot. No conspiracy required.
              Hi Herlock,

              I hope you are well. I agree that the JFK Assassination is the archetypal conspiracy theory. I think a lone gunman theory is a priori the most likely and seems confirmed by the evidence. However, it is indisputable that the secret services were too involved in the autopsy and aftermath (whether they feared a foreign gunman and hence a possible war situation, I don't know). But it needs explaining, in my view. The magic bullet theory also relates to the condition of the bullet found on the stretcher, of course, and not just its trajectory.

              BTW, I forgot to add, by chance I met author Robert Groden (author: Killing Of A President) when I visited Dealey Plaza some years ago. I put it to him directly that the Zapruder film clearly shows that the exit wound of the fatal head shot was at the front (hence the entrance wound was at the back). He told me that a frangible bullet would explode on impact and would be consistent with the visual evidence. I told him that the a priori probability of a second gunman using frangible bullets was lower and that every assumption you make or need to make about a second gunman lowers its probability. He then told me that he had located JFK's brain. I told him that it was case closed because the brain would tell us what gun was used. He then backed off that claim and tried to sell me his latest video.

              My lasting impression of Dealey Plaza was how small and compact it was. Do not be fooled by wide-angle lenses. My lasting impression of the conspiracy theorist industry is not printable.
              Last edited by ColdCaseJury; 02-11-2023, 08:15 AM.
              Author of Cold Case Jury books: Move To Murder (2nd Edition) (2021), The Shark Arm Mystery (2020), Poisoned at the Priory (2020), Move to Murder (2018), Death of an Actress (2018), The Green Bicycle Mystery (2017) - "Armchair detectives will be delighted" - Publishers Weekly. Author of Crime & Mystery Hour - short fictional crime stories. And for something completely different - I'm the co-founder of Wow-Vinyl - celebrating the Golden Years of the British Single (1977-85)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                For those that struggled to read the CIA document, here's a larger version:

                Click image for larger version

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                Nice post George , Motive as to why LBJ ordered Earl Warren to make Oswald a lone nut, if this information had of got out ''For Soviet Assignments'' who knows how already strained relations between the U.S and Russia could have turned out. . Another nail in the coffin of the why this ,why that arguement ,anyone who knows anything at all about American Politics and Foreign policty during the 50s and 60s need not ask .

                Another piece of evidence that gets overlooked far too often is this fact, Why did the FBI on the 23/11 63 collect Scrapings from the Presidential Limousine Windshield ?

                Comment


                • So Oswald was not quite the 'nobody' or 'loser' of WC legend. Clearly Oswald was a CIA asset as long claimed by Conspiracy Theorists and his own mother as well. In fact he was important enough to be impersonated to the Russian Embassy in Mexico City and possibly the Cuban Embassy as well.
                  The reason Oswald acted suspiciously after the assassination was because he feared a 'Day of the Condor' type meeting was being planned for him, hence the need for a revolver.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                    So Oswald was not quite the 'nobody' or 'loser' of WC legend. Clearly Oswald was a CIA asset as long claimed by Conspiracy Theorists and his own mother as well. In fact he was important enough to be impersonated to the Russian Embassy in Mexico City and possibly the Cuban Embassy as well.
                    The reason Oswald acted suspiciously after the assassination was because he feared a 'Day of the Condor' type meeting was being planned for him, hence the need for a revolver.
                    Even if Oswald was a CIA asset, it does not imply there was a second gunman. In fact, it doesn't even mean he was acting on orders. He could have gone rogue. But it offers a reason for why the CIA would have wanted to cover up the connection (hence WC whitewash). Is that a fair observation?
                    Author of Cold Case Jury books: Move To Murder (2nd Edition) (2021), The Shark Arm Mystery (2020), Poisoned at the Priory (2020), Move to Murder (2018), Death of an Actress (2018), The Green Bicycle Mystery (2017) - "Armchair detectives will be delighted" - Publishers Weekly. Author of Crime & Mystery Hour - short fictional crime stories. And for something completely different - I'm the co-founder of Wow-Vinyl - celebrating the Golden Years of the British Single (1977-85)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      So you are immune to facts?

                      The so-called Magic Bullet Theory isnt necessary. Science has proven, absolutely, categorically that the bullet trajectory lines up perfectly. Connolly was sitting lower than Kennedy and to his left. No issues at all.

                      3 shots from behind. One missed, one hit Kennedy in the back, one was the head shot. No conspiracy required.
                      There are the trade mark Herlock superlatives. "no issues at all" except being "absolutely, categorically" wrong.

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                      For someone who has stated that they know "zero" about firearms, you certainly have a lot to say about ballistics. From the first photo you can see that Connolly wasn't sitting down low in the centre of the car. A bullet from the TSBD would have been travelling from right to left in relation to the motion of the vehicle and Connolly was hit next to his RIGHT arm pit, not his left. In order to make their crazy theory fit the WC had the back wound altered to be in the back of the neck instead of 6" below the shoulder line. As can be seen, there are two wounds in the back, an entry wound (the small one) and an exit wound (larger) from the entry wound in the throat.

                      In the post after this you say "I’m a bit rusty on my JFK. The shots were fired from the book depository by Oswald with no help from Grassy Knoll phantoms. When the Zapruder film is analysed Kennedy’s head moves moves forward very slightly on first impact than backward. A combination of the bullet exploding in his brain and the ‘jet effect’ makes the head jar backwards. Exactly as scientific experts say that it would.".

                      The "jet effect"??? Have you revised Newton's Third Law of Motion in the light of your own observations? This has been proved to be nonsense from pseudo "experts". And the "head moving forward very slightly on first impact than backward" nonsense arose from a publication which reversed frames 314 and 315. Hoover acknowledged this as a "printing error" and apologised.

                      Cheers, George
                      It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                      ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                        The grassy knoll is one of the worst possible places for a shooter to position themself. The target would have been moving from left to right across the field of vision and frequently blocked by street signs or the heads of members of the crowd.
                        Plus there were people close by who might have seen the gunman and a car park behind him where any car owner might have seen him. Plus everyone knows that there would be people all around taking photographs, any one of which might have captured the gunman? Kennedy visits numerous places fully on display in his limousine. He passed untold thousands of buildings where an assassin with a high powered rifle could have killed him and made his escape via the back of the building before anyone knew what was going on. Yet we are asked to believe that our conspirators stick a bloke behind this fence?
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ColdCaseJury View Post

                          Hi Herlock,

                          I hope you are well. I agree that the JFK Assassination is the archetypal conspiracy theory. I think a lone gunman theory is a priori the most likely and seems confirmed by the evidence. However, it is indisputable that the secret services were too involved in the autopsy and aftermath (whether they feared a foreign gunman and hence a possible war situation, I don't know). But it needs explaining, in my view. The magic bullet theory also relates to the condition of the bullet found on the stretcher, of course, and not just its trajectory.

                          BTW, I forgot to add, by chance I met author Robert Groden (author: Killing Of A President) when I visited Dealey Plaza some years ago. I put it to him directly that the Zapruder film clearly shows that the exit wound of the fatal head shot was at the front (hence the entrance wound was at the back). He told me that a frangible bullet would explode on impact and would be consistent with the visual evidence. I told him that the a priori probability of a second gunman using frangible bullets was lower and that every assumption you make or need to make about a second gunman lowers its probability. He then told me that he had located JFK's brain. I told him that it was case closed because the brain would tell us what gun was used. He then backed off that claim and tried to sell me his latest video.

                          My lasting impression of Dealey Plaza was how small and compact it was. Do not be fooled by wide-angle lenses. My lasting impression of the conspiracy theorist industry is not printable.
                          Hi Anthony,

                          I’m well thanks. I hope you’re well too?

                          Interesting story. Groden is one of the better known conspiracy theorists of course. Isn’t it amazing how he could make such a staggering claim like that before, naturally, backing off? It’s like an “I know a secret but I’m not telling you,” kind of silliness. CT’s have also suggested that the Zapruder film was doctored. In a case like this when there is so much evidence and so many people involved (however tangentially) there are always going to errors, conflicting testimony and things that can be ‘read into’ various ways so it’s the most fertile of grounds for conspiracy theory. And of course we love a mystery (or you’d never sell any books) and many of us, with good reason, have a low opinion of those in power so here we have a chance to rope in all manner of shady power groups and in the process we create a ‘martyr’ in Oswald which always has an appeal.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ColdCaseJury View Post

                            Even if Oswald was a CIA asset, it does not imply there was a second gunman. In fact, it doesn't even mean he was acting on orders. He could have gone rogue. But it offers a reason for why the CIA would have wanted to cover up the connection (hence WC whitewash). Is that a fair observation?
                            Exactly.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                            “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              I watched the YouTube video of Bugliosi promoting his book. Pontifications about keeping secrets, then "there's no evidence that Oswald had any connection of association with any of these groups" (see below), "assuming for the state of argument", "Oswald would have been one of the last people of earth the CIA would have gone to, why, he was not an expert shot, he was a good shot but not an expert shot" (seems to be arguing against Oswald being capable), "he had a $12 mail order rifle" (fact check please), "just the type of guy that the CIA would rely on to commit the biggest murder in history" (sarcastic remark but a good argument for why Oswald wasn't a trigger man). Then there's a bunch of speculation about "likelihoods" of how Oswald might have been disposed of, "does any rational person believe". Enough is enough. I'll add pontifications to speculation, surmise and supposition. And it is suggested that I devote hours to reading more of this outdated nonsense?

                              "at the very least Oswald took the rifle into work". Doesn't prove he fired it or that he acted alone. I'm not disputing that he was involved in some way.

                              The paraffin test showed residue on his hands, as it would if he fired a revolver, not on his face which would have been right next to the bolt mechanism on a rifle.

                              If Oswald twigged he was being set up he would have made some evasive moves.

                              And now, the smoking gun document, recently released, from the head of the CIA to the head of the Secret Service stating that "Oswald subject was trained by this agency under the cover of the office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments." This is from Groden's new book, "JFK: Absolute Proof" which contains 1000 photos, some of which have not previously been seen, and the latest released documents. IMO a far better buy and read than the outdated ramblings of a dinosaur.

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	CIA-1.jpg Views:	6 Size:	253.7 KB ID:	803829
                              You really are sounding like a conspiracy theorist now George. All those documents that have been released and still not one that connects Oswald to the assassination or a conspiracy. It appears to show that Oswald had previously been used by the CIA. OK. This might explain why the conspiracy industry grew up. It would be completely understandable that a government wouldn’t want the public to know that the President was killed by someone that they had previously employed. But….

                              Question - would the government and its agencies have bent over backwards to frame for the murder of the President one of its former employees?
                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                                There are the trade mark Herlock superlatives. "no issues at all" except being "absolutely, categorically" wrong.

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                                For someone who has stated that they know "zero" about firearms, you certainly have a lot to say about ballistics. From the first photo you can see that Connolly wasn't sitting down low in the centre of the car. A bullet from the TSBD would have been travelling from right to left in relation to the motion of the vehicle and Connolly was hit next to his RIGHT arm pit, not his left. In order to make their crazy theory fit the WC had the back wound altered to be in the back of the neck instead of 6" below the shoulder line. As can be seen, there are two wounds in the back, an entry wound (the small one) and an exit wound (larger) from the entry wound in the throat.

                                In the post after this you say "I’m a bit rusty on my JFK. The shots were fired from the book depository by Oswald with no help from Grassy Knoll phantoms. When the Zapruder film is analysed Kennedy’s head moves moves forward very slightly on first impact than backward. A combination of the bullet exploding in his brain and the ‘jet effect’ makes the head jar backwards. Exactly as scientific experts say that it would.".

                                The "jet effect"??? Have you revised Newton's Third Law of Motion in the light of your own observations? This has been proved to be nonsense from pseudo "experts". And the "head moving forward very slightly on first impact than backward" nonsense arose from a publication which reversed frames 314 and 315. Hoover acknowledged this as a "printing error" and apologised.

                                Cheers, George
                                These diagrams have been proven to have been wrong. CGI recreations lined everything up perfectly. If the bullet, travelling downward, passed through Kennedy and didn’t hit Connolly where did it go? Did it vanish? Did it pass through Kennedy and shoot upwards, over the windscreen and away? There were no bullet holes in the car or it’s upholstery. The single bullet theory is proven. Bugliosi’s tied Cyril Wecht up in knots at the London trial.
                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

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