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  • HS,

    If you cannot deal with points raised then there is little more I can do to develop an argument with you. You have been told repeatedly that many consider Oswald was not the assassin. Yet you continue to plough through all your well worn arguments as if that were the case your opponents were arguing (which they are not), then claim the arguments they never made are weak. It is becoming a travesty. I will respond to new points; not those contested unless you develop them past the level of assertions. I am a heavy smoker and averse to strawmen for fear of fires.

    I, though a European, am well versed in the deterioration of American political discourse since 1963. It has fallen off a cliff in recent times sad to report. When a contributor on this site can write ‘two shooters dosnt (sic) mean a conspiracy’ then the coup d’etat of 1963 has clearly borne fruit.

    If you could relate every Oswald ‘lie’ to a written or recorded statement made inside custody then a serious debate could begin. Unfortunately that was aborted by Fritz from the outset and then buried by Ruby. All you have is hearsay. There was no, and let us remember the enormity of this: there was was not only no record, there was no trial in the most outrageous assassination in the 20th century despite the suspect being in custody! Democracy is a hard business for sure, down Dallas way at least.

    The parade route was negotiable until late. The Secret Service should have smelled a rat- the ramp over Main Street was hardly a problem that could not have been temporarily bridged (literally), allowing the motorcade to sail through to its destination avoiding the TSBD. They were sold a pup, presumably judging that the main threat came from the centre of the city.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

      Curious, indeed. Many people outside the Depository ran that way; even those who actually saw the shooter in the sixth floor window did, seemingly because everyone else was doing it.

      Yes, the area was described as a kind of echo chamber and with bullet noises being short and sharp and considering the shock/stress of the situation it’s perhaps unsurprising that there was confusion but this certainly doesn’t prove that there couldn’t have been a shot from the Knoll or that there wasn’t one. Perhaps we can add the gap of time between the incident and the witnesses being interviewed? Might a person have spoken to another who said that they thought the bullet came from the Knoll which caused the first person to reconsider their initial opinion? This could work both ways of course. And of course if just one person ran to the fence another would probably follow then within a few seconds you have a crowd running at that direction giving the impression that many suspected a shooter behind the fence.

      If I may....
      There were three empty shell cases found on the floor in the "sniper's nest". And there was a live round in the breech of the rifle when that was found. I don't think it was recorded whether there were any more in the magazine.
      You beat me to it Joshua.

      Comment


      • About the earwitnesses.

        https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...21.763432/full

        Comment


        • There were four shots.

          1 a miss.

          2 hit JFK's neck.

          3 emptied his brain pan.

          4 was also a head shot.

          It took over two seconds to reload the rifle found in the sniper's nest.

          The time between 3 and 4 was less (which also accounts for those thinking all shots came from the Book Depository).

          Shot 3,the kill shot was from the Grassy Knoll.The bullet was obviously not full metal jacket.
          Last edited by DJA; 02-08-2023, 11:31 PM.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
            HS,

            If you cannot deal with points raised then there is little more I can do to develop an argument with you. You have been told repeatedly that many consider Oswald was not the assassin. Yet you continue to plough through all your well worn arguments as if that were the case your opponents were arguing (which they are not), then claim the arguments they never made are weak. It is becoming a travesty. I will respond to new points; not those contested unless you develop them past the level of assertions. I am a heavy smoker and averse to strawmen for fear of fires.

            I, though a European, am well versed in the deterioration of American political discourse since 1963. It has fallen off a cliff in recent times sad to report. When a contributor on this site can write ‘two shooters dosnt (sic) mean a conspiracy’ then the coup d’etat of 1963 has clearly borne fruit.

            If you could relate every Oswald ‘lie’ to a written or recorded statement made inside custody then a serious debate could begin. Unfortunately that was aborted by Fritz from the outset and then buried by Ruby. All you have is hearsay. There was no, and let us remember the enormity of this: there was was not only no record, there was no trial in the most outrageous assassination in the 20th century despite the suspect being in custody! Democracy is a hard business for sure, down Dallas way at least.

            The parade route was negotiable until late. The Secret Service should have smelled a rat- the ramp over Main Street was hardly a problem that could not have been temporarily bridged (literally), allowing the motorcade to sail through to its destination avoiding the TSBD. They were sold a pup, presumably judging that the main threat came from the centre of the city.
            Being told that many consider that Oswald wasn’t the assassin achieves nothing; it’s just stating what we all know. Many believe the chemtrail trail conspiracy nonsense or the Qanon drivel. Many also believe that Oswald was guilty but I suppose that they are all just Warren Commission fanboys?. Granted the majority believe in conspiracy but are they all experts or are a percentage of them the same kind of person that believes in chemtrails or that world is run by alien shapeshifters? The point is that there are two sides and every detail can be debated and dissected resulting in differing interpretations but after 60 years we still have no conclusion that satisfies all or anything like an overwhelming majority. You appear to just want an acceptance of conspiracy as if it’s a done deal.

            You accuse me of avoiding points but I have to say that not one poster has dealt with the points that I’ve made about the flaws in the suggestion of this kind of conspiracy. The 53 points made by Bugliosi are all evidence based. Every single one of them. You might not like the evidence or agree with it but that doesn’t make them false. Oswald provably lied, provably acted like a guilty man, provably behave at the very least strangely and yet a communal blind eye is turned.

            There’s bern criticism on here about Bugliosi. Fair enough, no one should be immune from scrutiny or criticism but what has always amazed me is how in the past I’ve discussed the case with people who try to dismiss him but when I asked them “have you read and do you own Reclaiming History,” everyone said no. They’re quite willing to read anything on the subject but when it comes to that book they prefer to go on the opinion of others. Now you might or might not have the book but I wonder how many on here have read it?

            Ill ask myself a question - do I think it likely that a man would spend 20 years researching and writing a book 1612 pages long with so many endnotes and source notes that he had to attach a CD-Rom to every book just to contain them…purely to knowingly defend a lie?

            Id call that unlikely in the extreme at best.

            There isn’t just one side to this case Cobalt and there are way more loonies and dodgy people on the conspiracy side (and no, I’m not accusing anyone on here of that btw)

            Comment


            • Tests showed that if Oswald used the iron sights the gun could be reloaded in less than 2 seconds. The majority of witnesses heard 3 shots.

              Comment


              • I can reload a 303 Lee-Enfield from that era in less than 2 seconds and am sure the shooter could.
                Rifle's sights would suffice for shots 1,2 and 4 with the target moving away.

                The interval between shots 3 and 4 was much less than two seconds and obviously shot 3 did not come from the book depository.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                  Curious, indeed. Many people outside the Depository ran that way; even those who actually saw the shooter in the sixth floor window did, seemingly because everyone else was doing it.



                  If I may....
                  There were three empty shell cases found on the floor in the "sniper's nest". And there was a live round in the breech of the rifle when that was found. I don't think it was recorded whether there were any more in the magazine.
                  thanks JR
                  yes ive seen the photos of people pointing and running toward the GK/RRB area and there is even a photo where it appears you can see a puff of smoke coming from there.

                  but three shell cases and the majority of witnesses hearing three shots is strong evidence oswald was the lone shooter and yet....

                  the eyewitness evidence of a shooter from the GK/RRB area and.... and..a point I raised earlier that no one seems to want to tackle-how in the hell does JFKs head and skull part fly backward if the kill shot was from behind!?!?!
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                    the eyewitness evidence of a shooter from the GK/RRB area and.... and..a point I raised earlier that no one seems to want to tackle-how in the hell does JFKs head and skull part fly backward if the kill shot was from behind!?!?!
                    Hi Abby,

                    You have raised the definitive question which can be answered using the laws of physics. When a bullet strikes a hard object such as a skull it makes a small entry wound and a larger exit wound. How large the exit wound is depends on the type of ammo being used. Military rounds have a lead core with a full metal jacket designed to pass through flesh, but they with mushroom if they strike bone. Like land mines, they are designed to wound rather than kill, as the result is one screaming victim and two or three others to carry him from the field of battle rather than a reduction of only one dead soldier. The other type is a hollow point which will fragment after hitting bone and produce a very large exit hole. The X-Rays on Kennedy's skull showed fragments below the surface at the right side temple. When a bullet blasts a skull, the debris of bone fragments, blood and brain matter go in the direction of the bullet's path. The debris for the first head shot hit the 2 motorcycle escorts on the left of the presidential vehicle, and the left side to the vehicle behind as well as Clint Hill. There was a skull fragment found about 50' away in that direction. But there was a second shot from the rear a fraction of a second later which deposited skull debris inside the windscreen.

                    Since you are interested in the physics rather than just the conjecture, I would suggest you might take a look at these two videos (endeavour to persevere, as there are some boring bits):

                    The assassination of President John F. Kennedy remains the greatest American murder mystery, decades after the official report declared Lee Harvey Oswald as ...


                    In 1975, Robert Groden brought Abraham Zapruder’s home movie of President Kennedy’s assassination to a national audience for an inaugural viewing on a telev...


                    Herlock, I think Oswald was involved but doubt his role was trigger man. Can you explain how he got from the sniper's nest to the canteen in 90 seconds. The lifts were out due to the black out and two women who were on the stairs at the time testified that no one ran past them. I await your deliberations.

                    Cheers, George
                    They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                    Out of a misty dream
                    Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                    Within a dream.
                    Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                    Comment


                    • Full Metal Jacket - Charles Whitman/Lee Harvey Oswald Scene (1987) 60fps 1080p HD - YouTube
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        I can reload a 303 Lee-Enfield from that era in less than 2 seconds and am sure the shooter could.
                        Rifle's sights would suffice for shots 1,2 and 4 with the target moving away.

                        The interval between shots 3 and 4 was much less than two seconds and obviously shot 3 did not come from the book depository.
                        Hi Dave,

                        The SMLE is the fastest reloading rifle due to it's rear locking which allows a shorter bolt than the Mauser front locking bolt mechanism. It also allows the shooter to keep his head in place viewing the sights while reloading where as the Mauser long throw action requires the shooter to shift his head away from the sights to reload and the bolt handle obscures the sights for the entirety of the reload. Additionally, the bolt rotation on the SMLE is only 60 degrees. The SMLE is a very fine rifle. The Mannlicher Carcano is a piece of junk, and is in no way comparable.

                        Cheers, George
                        They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                        Out of a misty dream
                        Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                        Within a dream.
                        Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Only used the original.Kicks like a mule if you don't hold it correctly.Marvelous stopping power.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                            Er. Yes it does. Let me transcribe the relevant lines;

                            "We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time....The rifle was between some boxes near the stairwell"
                            Can you show me where thats written specifically in his statement? I've haven't seen that as yet.
                            'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • Wow, I'd forgotten I'd started this thread on the JFK assassination, 5+ yrs ago. It's very interesting to see discussion is still going.

                              But I don't see reference to newer studies and reconstructions which have debunked the Grassy Knoll shooter theory. Here's an article from 2018, about a scholarly published study which does explain AbbyNormal's question re the motion of the head and skull fragment. Nalli states the throat wound is the entry of the bullet, not its exit. It basically created pressure which exploded the skull.



                              There are other search results for the search "physics of jfk assassination", if you are interested.

                              I've seen a television program reconstruction which correctly had Connolly in the "jump seat" behind the car's actual front seat, which meant he was sitting lower than the President, rhus making the physics of the bullet's trajectory less "magicial."
                              Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                              ---------------
                              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                              ---------------

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                                When a bullet blasts a skull, the debris of bone fragments, blood and brain matter go in the direction of the bullet's path.
                                Sorry George, this just isn't true. Or at least not completely true. Debris will go in all directions, not just in the direction of the bullet's travel.

                                Watch this short video of a watermelon being hit by a bullet and tell me that debris only goes one way https://youtu.be/o1aKtshb6D8


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