JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the info Jon

I’d assume that it would have been the norm to keep a list of the phone calls made by Oswald? Wouldn’t the CIA have been running a huge risk of someone looking into who Oswald had called and finding this guy and his links?

In this case the call was never completed. The story goes that all calls out of the prison must be collect if the prisoner has no cash on him to pay for the call.
Intelligence operatives were present in the office when Oswald made his call, they instructed the exchange operator to not complete the call, to say to Oswald that no-one picked up the phone.
That was the end of it.
So the only official record of this attempted call was that note made by Treon.

The theory goes that no-one investigated this at the time because the CIA believed there was no record of a call. Treon kept the note as a momento and took it home with her. It only surfaced several years later.

Alan Dulles had been the Director of the CIA, but fired by Kennedy. Dulles was involved in the Warren Commission to advise how to question witnesses.
It is believed he steered the inquiry away from any potential CIA involvement in this assassination.
True or false? - who knows.

[Abby Normal]

I think that I can recall reading somewhere that Joe Kennedy was close to Joachim Von Ribbentrop in some way? Maybe I dreamt it

Hey hs
Never heard this one. Please explain.

[Wickerman]

When you add this to the fact that it was Oswald gun, with Oswalds prints (one of which was in an area where only a person who had assembled the gun could have accessed.)...

Have you read of this document said to have been signed by Hoover, which noted that no usable fingerprints were found on the rifle?

Some time later (days?), there was a contrary report that a print was found on the rifle.
Statements have been found from witnesses dated between these two events that claim some men came into the mortuary carrying a rifle, which they brought up to the body of Oswald.

The suggestion was that one unidentified officer pressed the dead hand of Oswald against the gun.
True or false? - again, it's hard to say.

Regardless if the subsequent claims are accurate, the fact this document exists signed by J Edgar Hoover that no prints were on the rifle is significant by itself.
I haven't seen it, but I have not seen too many books published after 2000 either.

[Graham]

Amazingly there were two John Hurts in Raleigh, SC: a John William and a John David. It seems that Oswald had memorised the phone-numbers of both of them, and the operator had written both numbers on the slip (which survives). Later investigation showed that John D Hurt had worked for US Military Intelligence during WW2, but he claimed that he had no further contact with Intelligence after the end of the war. He and his wife were interviewed by various people a number of times, and it seems that by 1963 Hurt was very emotionally unstable and an alcoholic. His wife later claimed that 'the truth' was that Hurt had got very drunk the day after the Assassination and had for whatever reason phoned Oswald at Dallas Jail. There is no record of any incoming call from any Raleigh number on 23 November. Hurt asserted that until the Assassination he had never heard of Oswald, but in the world of intrigue and conspiracy that is exactly what any cut-out would do if suspicion fell upon him. You only have to read John le Carre!

Various investigators have suggested that Hurt was Oswald's CIA cut-out, but this has never been proven and never will be, presumably. However, the fact that Oswald had memorised the phone-number of a known former Military Intelligence operative is intriguing and, one presumes, significant.

The entire JFK Assassination story and its ongoing aftermath is now so massive and so intricate it will probably never be fully analysed or even fully understood, nor is it likely that anyone will ever prove absolutely for certain if there was a conspiracy or if Oswald acted totally alone. I repeat, that from a personal perspective, I have to reject the latter.

Graham

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey hs
Never heard this one. Please explain.

It’s a very vague memory Abby. I can’t recall where I read it. I recall reading about Kennedy being anti-Semitic.
I just found this article. I haven’t read it fully though.

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/joseph-p-kennedy-controversial-ambassador-to-great-britain/

[Graham]

Joseph Kennedy was US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, and Joachim von Ribbentrop was the German Ambassador to the UK, the latter prior to WW2 obviously. Both men met on numerous occasions and were photographed together. Both held strong anti-Semitic opinions. Both disliked and mistrusted the British. Kennedy stated publicly that Germany would win the war, and tried to influence Rooseveldt to keep out of it.

As far as I'm aware it was a proven fact and an open secret that Joe Kennedy was making money out of illicit booze prior to WW2.

Graham

[Herlock Sholmes]

Have you read of this document said to have been signed by Hoover, which noted that no usable fingerprints were found on the rifle?

Some time later (days?), there was a contrary report that a print was found on the rifle.
Statements have been found from witnesses dated between these two events that claim some men came into the mortuary carrying a rifle, which they brought up to the body of Oswald.

The suggestion was that one unidentified officer pressed the dead hand of Oswald against the gun.
True or false? - again, it's hard to say.

Regardless if the subsequent claims are accurate, the fact this document exists signed by J Edgar Hoover that no prints were on the rifle is significant by itself.
I haven't seen it, but I have not seen too many books published after 2000 either.

I’ll mention ‘you-know-who’ again. It’s only because I recall how this issue was raised by conspiracy theorists and how Bugliosi responds in his book.

It was claimed that Dallas Police found no prints on the gun but it was then sent to the FBI who ‘miraculously’ found Oswald’s prints. This led to the famous scene in the Stone movie of the figures pulling Oswald’s arm from beneath the shroud to plant his prints on the rifle.
Bugliosi checked into the records and found that what actually happened was that Dallas Police found his prints straight away but the method that they employed was by using sticky tape. The downside of this method was that it often pulled off the print after it was done. So when they sent the rifle to the FBI they unsurprisingly found no prints.
Conspiracy theorists had apparently tried to turn these events around to create a sinister plot.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In this case the call was never completed. The story goes that all calls out of the prison must be collect if the prisoner has no cash on him to pay for the call.
Intelligence operatives were present in the office when Oswald made his call, they instructed the exchange operator to not complete the call, to say to Oswald that no-one picked up the phone.
That was the end of it.
So the only official record of this attempted call was that note made by Treon.

The theory goes that no-one investigated this at the time because the CIA believed there was no record of a call. Treon kept the note as a momento and took it home with her. It only surfaced several years later.

Alan Dulles had been the Director of the CIA, but fired by Kennedy. Dulles was involved in the Warren Commission to advise how to question witnesses.
It is believed he steered the inquiry away from any potential CIA involvement in this assassination.
True or false? - who knows.

Thanks for the background Jon.

[Abby Normal]

It’s a very vague memory Abby. I can’t recall where I read it. I recall reading about Kennedy being anti-Semitic.
I just found this article. I haven’t read it fully though.



http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dai...great-britain/

Ok got it. Yes he was a well known anti Semite.
Not sure how close he was to rippentrop though.

[Abby Normal]

Joseph Kennedy was US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, and Joachim von Ribbentrop was the German Ambassador to the UK, the latter prior to WW2 obviously. Both men met on numerous occasions and were photographed together. Both held strong anti-Semitic opinions. Both disliked and mistrusted the British. Kennedy stated publicly that Germany would win the war, and tried to influence Rooseveldt to keep out of it.

As far as I'm aware it was a proven fact and an open secret that Joe Kennedy was making money out of illicit booze prior to WW2.

Graham

Hi graham
Thanks for the info.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Amazingly there were two John Hurts in Raleigh, SC: a John William and a John David. It seems that Oswald had memorised the phone-numbers of both of them, and the operator had written both numbers on the slip (which survives). Later investigation showed that John D Hurt had worked for US Military Intelligence during WW2, but he claimed that he had no further contact with Intelligence after the end of the war. He and his wife were interviewed by various people a number of times, and it seems that by 1963 Hurt was very emotionally unstable and an alcoholic. His wife later claimed that 'the truth' was that Hurt had got very drunk the day after the Assassination and had for whatever reason phoned Oswald at Dallas Jail. There is no record of any incoming call from any Raleigh number on 23 November. Hurt asserted that until the Assassination he had never heard of Oswald, but in the world of intrigue and conspiracy that is exactly what any cut-out would do if suspicion fell upon him. You only have to read John le Carre!

Various investigators have suggested that Hurt was Oswald's CIA cut-out, but this has never been proven and never will be, presumably. However, the fact that Oswald had memorised the phone-number of a known former Military Intelligence operative is intriguing and, one presumes, significant.

The entire JFK Assassination story and its ongoing aftermath is now so massive and so intricate it will probably never be fully analysed or even fully understood, nor is it likely that anyone will ever prove absolutely for certain if there was a conspiracy or if Oswald acted totally alone. I repeat, that from a personal perspective, I have to reject the latter.

Graham

Thanks for that Graham. It will be no surprise to you that I have to reject the former
I totally agree with you though that it’s hard to see this case ever being resolved to the satisfaction of all. It’s just so complicated. I think that I was right to call it a minefield in an earlier post. You can see why people become so obsessed about the subject. I once knew a guy whose girlfriend threatened to walk-out on him because all he could talk about was ‘magic bullet’s,’ and ‘the CIA,’ ‘badge man.’ They’re married now and living in France so he must have found a new hobby.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok got it. Yes he was a well known anti Semite.
Not sure how close he was to rippentrop though.

Maybe he wasn’t Abby. Maybe they just met at the occasional function and someone read too much into that?

[Robert]

I thought that they found no usable fingerprints, but years later using new technology they got some partial prints which corresponded with Oswald's as far as they went, but not enough for a conclusive identification.

[Graham]

Ribbentrop was a wine merchant before the war, so presumably he and Joe Kennedy had more in common than just anti-Semitism!

Graham

[jason_c]

Joseph Kennedy was US Ambassador to the United Kingdom, and Joachim von Ribbentrop was the German Ambassador to the UK, the latter prior to WW2 obviously. Both men met on numerous occasions and were photographed together. Both held strong anti-Semitic opinions. Both disliked and mistrusted the British. Kennedy stated publicly that Germany would win the war, and tried to influence Rooseveldt to keep out of it.

As far as I'm aware it was a proven fact and an open secret that Joe Kennedy was making money out of illicit booze prior to WW2.

Graham

He was certainly making money from booze prior to WWII, but it was of a legal nature. As far as I know not one document, informer or contemporary mentions him as an illegal bootlegger or even suspected illegal bootlegger during prohibition. It's certainly not proven fact he was involved. Again, Joe Snr was not a particularly nice guy, he made money on the stock-market through both fair means and foul, but I think he has been demonized more than is warranted. His degree of anti-Semitic views and pessimism regarding the upcoming war were probably normal for his time. What was not normal was to place a man with his views as ambassador to the UK during one of the most important periods of diplomacy of modern times.

I don't want to sound like im defending Joe Kennedy but I think he has been turned into a bigger ogre than he probably was.