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  • #91
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    But that would tie the Mob directly to the crime, and it would suggest a "conspiracy". Remember, there are two scenario's to consider.
    1 - Oswald being hired by the Mob to assassinate Kennedy or,
    2 - Oswald being an accessory, not being the one who pulled the trigger.
    I just think Oswald's actions following the assassination are more in keeping with the 2nd scenario, than the first.

    Again, in scenario 2, Oswald is supposed to slip out of sight and wait somewhere (presumably?), either to receive his payoff, or to get bumped off.

    In either scenario, Bugliosiís point was, that there would have been a getaway plan. One that would most likely end up with Oswald being bumped off. But this didnít happen. Oswald passed a bus stop that would have dropped him pretty much outside his boarding house (his destination) to get further from the scene. He got on a bus that would have taken him 5 or 6 blocks away from his BH. It gets clogged in traffic so he jumps off and gets a taxi. The taxi driver recalled speaking to Oswald about the assassination but he didnít say a word in response. This was a desperate panicked attempts to get away. Not a planned escape.


    Ruby had claimed his life was in danger, he asked Judge Warren more than once to get him out, to Washington.

    True but he was pretty much barking mad. To be honest Jon I canít recall what Bugliosi wrote on that. Iíll have a look tomorrow.



    Basil is one of my favourites too.

    Total genius
    I was once tempted to join a JFK forum but it was like being hurled into a pack of starving grizzly bears! Ripper debate is much less vehement (on the whole anyway )

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      Surely Jon, in effect, you are saying because the evidence fits Oswald perfectly thatís not really proof because it could have been set up that way?
      It's the kind of evidence that would be easy to arrange.
      The most basic questions are going to be, "who bought the gun?", "who's fingerprints are on it?", and "who arranged these boxes?"
      The authorities are naturally going to think the answer to all these questions is the same - the killer.
      So it wouldn't matter if anyone gave Oswald an alibi, the facts would speak for themselves, in their eyes.


      Iím pretty sure that it was only decided 3 days before the assassination.
      It was first published on the 18/19th, but it had been finalized on the 15th, or so I read.


      Iím the same Jon. Itís such a minefield of a subject. I got interested a few years ago and for a year I read pretty much nothing but JFK books. But Iím very rusty. As you know there are people out there who are obsessed and would be able to tell you Jim Garrisonís inside leg measurement!
      The last book I bought on this was, High Treason, that came out back in the late 1990's. So I have some catching up to do.

      Didn't the first shot hit an overhead road sign?, I seem to recall some re-enactment establishing this, if I recall correctly.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #93
        The document release went ahead, for 2,800 documents. The rest are being delayed 180 days for review of redactions.



        Good article above, with info on most interesting content (Oswald's trip to Mexico), how to understand the code names, and suggestions for websites with useful guides to the JFK documents.
        Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
        ---------------
        Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
        ---------------

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          It's the kind of evidence that would be easy to arrange.
          The most basic questions are going to be, "who bought the gun?", "who's fingerprints are on it?", and "who arranged these boxes?"
          The authorities are naturally going to think the answer to all these questions is the same - the killer.
          So it wouldn't matter if anyone gave Oswald an alibi, the facts would speak for themselves, in their eyes.




          It was first published on the 18/19th, but it had been finalized on the 15th, or so I read.




          The last book I bought on this was, High Treason, that came out back in the late 1990's. So I have some catching up to do.

          Didn't the first shot hit an overhead road sign?, I seem to recall some re-enactment establishing this, if I recall correctly.
          This subject is worse than Ripperology for trying to keep up with the books! I used to look forward to a new ripper book and I used to buy every one but nowadays you blink and there are 20 new books that youíve never heard of. I have a friend who has a brilliant ripper collection (including a William Stewart, a Woodhall, original copies of Robert Anderson, Macnaughten, Smith etc) and we both said recently that thereís no point even trying to get them all. So I havenít bought a JFK book since Bugliosiís and Iím pretty sure that I wonít bother. To be honest I havenít given the case a second thought until this thread.

          On the road sign. I seem to recall seeing the same documentary but I donít know if it has been completely accepted as fact. I think that someone noticed a Ďmarkí on the sign which is more or less along the possible flight path of a bullet.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
            The document release went ahead, for 2,800 documents. The rest are being delayed 180 days for review of redactions.



            Good article above, with info on most interesting content (Oswald's trip to Mexico), how to understand the code names, and suggestions for websites with useful guides to the JFK documents.
            Thanks for that post Pat👍

            Comment


            • #96
              Appreciated

              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              Thanks for that post Pat👍
              You're welcome, Herlock. As a librarian, I enjoy looking for information and passing it along to help people. Information wants to be free!

              Re the article, I was interested by the mention of someone possibly impersonating Oswald, which I wasn't aware of. My dad was somewhat of a JFK assassination buff, and read a lot about it, but didn't get as crazy as some of the people you mentioned on the forums.
              Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
              ---------------
              Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
              ---------------

              Comment


              • #97
                Fact remains that Oswald was killed (silenced) before he could stand stand trial for the assassination. Gunned down by a man with links to organised crime who apparently sacrificed his freedom because he was a JFK fanboy?

                "But Bugliosi says..."

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                  Fact remains that Oswald was killed (silenced) before he could stand stand trial for the assassination. Gunned down by a man with links to organised crime who apparently sacrificed his freedom because he was a JFK fanboy?

                  "But Bugliosi says..."
                  Of course, why take notice of a guy that spent over twenty years conducting the most comprehensive investigation into a true crime ever when you can take notice of people who see snipers in coloured blobs of foliage or suggest that the driver of Kennedyís car turned around in full view of everyone and shot him. Or that a secret service operative in the car behind accidentally shot him as the car jolted and he fell backwards. Or you can believe in Garrisonsí army of snipers in Dealey Plaza.
                  Of course we should believe that Ruby was a mobster just because a few mobsters used his club (along with every other club in Dallas). So what if absolutely no evidence was found that he was involved inorganised crime? Who needs evidence when we can come up with loony theories and non-existent Ďconnections.í When we can answer every statement of provable fact with the conspiracy theorists mantra of Ďwell they would say that wouldnít they!í

                  ĎRuby the fanboy.í How unbelievable! Of course no one has ever become obsessed with anyone before, even to the point of murder! You say itís nonsense Harry and of course you knew Jack Ruby much better than his sister Eva. Who, and Iím sorry for repeating myself here, said that her brother thought that Kennedy was the greatest man ever. Absolutely idolised him. Cried way more when he was killed than when there parents died! Was the only club owner to close his club out of respect! Hung out with police officers, getting them coffee and sandwiches. Attended a press conference with Oswald! All perfectly normal behaviour of course for a Mafia hitman.

                  And then this organised mob hit! The worst plan ever! With absolutely zero margin for error because he gets to Oswald just in time he stops off to post some money! Then a completely innocent member of the public conveniently distracts the police officer at the top of the ramp! And then, to top it all, Oswald himself helps out in his own assassination/suicide by delaying the time he comes out!

                  And then of course the Mafia who are desperate to silence Oswald because he knew to much forget to assassinate Ruby who I assume (you know, being a mobster) knew quite a lot too!

                  All the evidence, I mean all of it, points to Oswald as the lone assassin and Ruby as the obsessive, unbalanced guy that killed him.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                    You're welcome, Herlock. As a librarian, I enjoy looking for information and passing it along to help people. Information wants to be free!

                    Re the article, I was interested by the mention of someone possibly impersonating Oswald, which I wasn't aware of. My dad was somewhat of a JFK assassination buff, and read a lot about it, but didn't get as crazy as some of the people you mentioned on the forums.
                    Hi Pat,

                    The idea of someone impersonating Oswald has been around for years. Iím sure that I have a book stashed away somewhere called The Second Oswald? Itís nonsense of course

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      Hi Pat,

                      The idea of someone impersonating Oswald has been around for years. Iím sure that I have a book stashed away somewhere called The Second Oswald? Itís nonsense of course
                      Recollection a tad fuzzy again but, wasn't this Oswald clone supposed to be the one who shot officer Tippit?
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • lets not forget that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker before Kennedy, so obviously he was up for this type of thing.

                        There is no question that Oswald shot kennedy at least the bullet that went through the neck.

                        its the fatal head shot that appears to come from the front, IMHO which true, was probably coming from a gun man from the left end of the railroad over pass, that Ive always wondered about.

                        but again, Oswald was definitely a better than average shot, and had attempted a previous assassination.

                        I still lean toward he acted alone but not by much.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Yes Herlock, Ruby was sooo obsessed with JFK that he closed his bar, couldnít eat, couldnít sleep after his death and sacrificed his freedom to protect Jackie but he couldnít even be bothered to go see his hero at the motorcade?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            Recollection a tad fuzzy again but, wasn't this Oswald clone supposed to be the one who shot officer Tippit?
                            I donít recall that one Jon but that doesnít mean that it hasnít been suggested. I recall a photograph reproduced in many books of a supposed second Oswald at, I believe, the Mexican embassy. It looked nothing like him but to be honest for what was being proposed I donít think looks were important.

                            I know that some seem not to like any mention of Bugliosi but he makes the point that there were 10 witnesses who positively identified Oswald at Tippitís Murder. Only one actually saw him fire. The others saw him approach Tippit, then they lost sight of him behind fences and hedges, they heard the gunshots then saw Oswald leaving the scene emptying the cartridges from his gun. The point being how many crime scenes have 10 positive sightings and yet we are expected to believe that they were all mistaken or lying?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                              Yes Herlock, Ruby was sooo obsessed with JFK that he closed his bar, couldn’t eat, couldn’t sleep after his death and sacrificed his freedom to protect Jackie but he couldn’t even be bothered to go see his hero at the motorcade?
                              And that’s the best you can come up with Harry?

                              Why would his sister lie? Unless she was a CIA stooge of course!

                              Why would he sacrifice his freedom for a Mafia contract then?

                              Why didn’t he mention any plot when he was in custody? I mean specifically?

                              Again I’ll point you to the events of this ‘mob hit.’ The Western Union, the distracted policeman, Oswald and his jacket. How can any sane person see this as an organised hit. It’s laughable drivel. There is ample evidence of Ruby being unbalanced from people who actually knew him. This is a guy who had a dog that he called ‘his wife!’ And this is the guy that the Mafia selected to eliminate Oswald? You couldn’t make this tripe up. Oh...someone did.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                lets not forget that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker before Kennedy, so obviously he was up for this type of thing.

                                There is no question that Oswald shot kennedy at least the bullet that went through the neck.

                                its the fatal head shot that appears to come from the front, IMHO which true, was probably coming from a gun man from the left end of the railroad over pass, that Ive always wondered about.

                                but again, Oswald was definitely a better than average shot, and had attempted a previous assassination.

                                I still lean toward he acted alone but not by much.
                                The Walker point is a good one Abby. Oswald had form. And let’s not forget that Oswald was well known in the Dallas Russian emigre community and when those emigres were asked if Oswald was the kind of person that would do something like kill the President many of them said yes absolutely. At the time even Marina said that she was sure that he was guilty. It was only after hearing years of conspiracy talk that she saw a way of ‘wiping away the stain’ by saying that she believed he was innocent.

                                I totally understand caution on this subject Abby. For years I leaned heavily toward conspiracy. After all there is so much there. So many theories. So many ‘witnesses.’ So many claiming to be assassins.
                                Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 10-27-2017, 02:28 PM.

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