JFK Assassination Documents to be released this year

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought that they found no usable fingerprints, but years later using new technology they got some partial prints which corresponded with Oswald's as far as they went, but not enough for a conclusive identification.

No, Oswald’s prints were found at the time. The palm print that was found was partially on an area of the gun that could only have been accessed by someone who had assembled or disassembled it.

[Graham]

With regard to finger- and palm-prints found on the rifle.

1] J C Day of Dallas Police Forensic found two very faint finger-prints on the metal plate housing the trigger mechanism. Photos were taken and the prints on the rifle covered with protective tape.

2] On the night of the assassination the rifle was flown to Washington DC and the rifle and the photo's were re-examined but no identifiable prints were found. The Warren Commission apparently accepted these findings. After the tests in Washington the rifle was returned to Dallas.

3] It was suggested that the rifle had been carefully wiped clean by its user, hence no good prints being found.

4] On 29 November after further close inspection of the rifle the FBI claimed that a palm-print had been found which they further claimed had been made by Oswald's right hand.

5] It was asked by the Warren Commission why no photos of the palm-print were taken and Day stated that he had been ordered by J Curry, Dallas Chief of Police, not to photograph the palm-print.

6] Oswald's prints were found on boxes containing books in the TSBD, but as he was employed to move such boxes around the building this would be expected, and does not in any way incriminate Oswald as the shooter of the rifle found in the TSBD.

7] Even if the prints found on the rifle were Oswald's it does not necessarily mean that Oswald handled and fired the weapon on the day of the assassination.

8] Some 15 years after the assassination a memo was released by the FBI which states that the Warren Commission was very doubtful of the palm-print found on the rifle, and there was a somewhat oblique suggestion that it had been obtained and placed there by 'other means'. (Like at the mortuary?)

9] More than 20 years after the assassination, the FBI officer in Washington who had received the rifle when it been sent there by Dallas police stated that he did not believe there ever was a palm-print on the rifle.

It's all a bit murky, eh?

Graham

+

[Michael W Richards]

Here's a theory I had not heard before, it's about 2.5 hrs long, but it begins with the suggestion that Oswald had a double.

https://youtu.be/6j89ajt6nA8

Finding someone with the same name is one thing, but how many unrelated people who have the same name actually also look the same?
On the face of it that seems too much to believe...

Ive read a few dozen of the released papers and I was surprised on that angle myself. The fact is that this doppleganger was heavier than Oswald ever was and didnt have a receding hairline...the Mexico City embassy contact he first interviewed with said a later call supposedly from Oswald didnt sound like him, his Russian was poor. Ive found some fascinating snippets in there...a witness who saw 2 known Cuba assassins returning to Havana from Dallas a few hours after the murder, verification that the CIA alledged Castro assassination plots were not only real, they also had mob connections thrown in...theres a memo that says Robert Kennedy wanted to know when they were using mob affiliated men for dirty work since he was in the midst of trying to eliminate the Mafia, talks about attempts to bug Peter Lawfords mansion due to his relationship with Jack, Robert, Frank and many, many Hollywood women,... regular financial payouts to informants, some interesting cold war technologies discussed.... like poison pens, ...

All in all quite fascinating really.

[Graham]

a witness who saw 2 known Cuba assassins returning to Havana from Dallas a few hours after the murder,

How would they be able to do that, as I understand there was a US-applied embargo on travel of any kind between the United States and Cuba at that time?

Graham

[Wickerman]

...
I totally agree with you though that it’s hard to see this case ever being resolved to the satisfaction of all. It’s just so complicated. I think that I was right to call it a minefield in an earlier post. You can see why people become so obsessed about the subject...

I'm sure you're correct, it will never be solved, too many moving parts.

One of the reason's I decided to leave it alone all those years ago was because I had read so many unrelated accounts of the CIA, under Alan Dulles, being involved in subterfuge around the world. The coup in Guatemala, the overthrow of the Iranian government, The Bay of Pigs fiasco, and the U2 spy program, etc.
They could be an unsavory lot at times, so why not be involved in this assassination?

The other point is, on the subject of Cuba, both the CIA and the Mob had a similar objective, to get rid of Castro. So when we know how intelligence operatives can and do use members of organized crime, is it so unexpected to contemplate that some agents of the CIA might cooperate with some Mobsters towards the same goal?
So how then do we separate the Mob from the CIA when it comes to the actions of individuals in this assassination plot?

Some theorists seem to want to keep it a Mob initiative, others a CIA inititiative, yet some details point to the Mob, and yet others point to the CIA.
If 'agents' from each organization were working together, isn't that exactly what we should expect to see?

Has anyone offered a theory which involves collaboration between some agents at the CIA & some arm of the Mob?
There's a distinct possibility that this may have been the case, but the intertwining of the threads of evidence just may be too complex to sort them out at this late date.

All I feel reasonably sure about is that Oswald was involved, but that he was not alone. Everything else is sort of up in the air for me.

[Wickerman]

Ive read a few dozen of the released papers and I was surprised on that angle myself. The fact is that this doppleganger was heavier than Oswald ever was and didnt have a receding hairline...the Mexico City embassy contact he first interviewed with said a later call supposedly from Oswald didnt sound like him, his Russian was poor. Ive found some fascinating snippets in there...a witness who saw 2 known Cuba assassins returning to Havana from Dallas a few hours after the murder, verification that the CIA alledged Castro assassination plots were not only real, they also had mob connections thrown in...theres a memo that says Robert Kennedy wanted to know when they were using mob affiliated men for dirty work since he was in the midst of trying to eliminate the Mafia, talks about attempts to bug Peter Lawfords mansion due to his relationship with Jack, Robert, Frank and many, many Hollywood women,... regular financial payouts to informants, some interesting cold war technologies discussed.... like poison pens, ...

All in all quite fascinating really.

Hi Michael.

Well, you surprise me, you mention exactly what I have been contemplating all these years.
And yes, the Mob were in Hollywood too and undoubtedly had connections which reached well beyond the film set.

[Abby Normal]

I'm sure you're correct, it will never be solved, too many moving parts.

One of the reason's I decided to leave it alone all those years ago was because I had read so many unrelated accounts of the CIA, under Alan Dulles, being involved in subterfuge around the world. The coup in Guatemala, the overthrow of the Iranian government, The Bay of Pigs fiasco, and the U2 spy program, etc.
They could be an unsavory lot at times, so why not be involved in this assassination?

The other point is, on the subject of Cuba, both the CIA and the Mob had a similar objective, to get rid of Castro. So when we know how intelligence operatives can and do use members of organized crime, is it so unexpected to contemplate that some agents of the CIA might cooperate with some Mobsters towards the same goal?
So how then do we separate the Mob from the CIA when it comes to the actions of individuals in this assassination plot?

Some theorists seem to want to keep it a Mob initiative, others a CIA inititiative, yet some details point to the Mob, and yet others point to the CIA.
If 'agents' from each organization were working together, isn't that exactly what we should expect to see?

Has anyone offered a theory which involves collaboration between some agents at the CIA & some arm of the Mob?
There's a distinct possibility that this may have been the case, but the intertwining of the threads of evidence just may be too complex to sort them out at this late date.

All I feel reasonably sure about is that Oswald was involved, but that he was not alone. Everything else is sort of up in the air for me.

Hi wick
One of the more plausible scenarios involving the mob and cia, is the ex Cuban patriot scenario.

Both the ex Cuban patriots and cia were pissed at JFK for not following through with air support when the pay of pigs fiasco fell apart. So after that The cia was using the ex patriots, many who had mob ties from the pre Castro Cuba casino glory days, to try to assissinate castro. When they could not get Castro , they went after the next best target, JFK, and it got turned around on him.

[Wickerman]

Hi wick
One of the more plausible scenarios involving the mob and cia, is the ex Cuban patriot scenario.

Both the ex Cuban patriots and cia were pissed at JFK for not following through with air support when the pay of pigs fiasco fell apart. So after that The cia was using the ex patriots, many who had mob ties from the pre Castro Cuba casino glory days, to try to assissinate castro. When they could not get Castro , they went after the next best target, JFK, and it got turned around on him.

Hi Abby.

Thankyou yes, that is one example of a clandestine cooperation which in the public mind should be unthinkable.
There's a Wiki page that mentions all the underhanded operations the CIA involved themselves in around the world. Drug running from S/E Asia is mentioned there too, and from South America, which can only have been to fund their global operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency

Oswald has had verifiable liaisons with the Russians, as we know, but it crossed my mind that this was the time when Cuba was looking for support from Russia. Past investigators have assumed that these liaisons implicated the Russians as being behind the assassination, but this may have been a misjudgement on their part. Oswald could have been there to connect with Cuban operatives through a Russian Embassy, just looking at it from a different perspective.

[Michael W Richards]

How would they be able to do that, as I understand there was a US-applied embargo on travel of any kind between the United States and Cuba at that time?

Graham

Hi Graham,

Ill have to go over it again, it was a connecting flight from one of the Caribbean Islands I believe. I think the reason this informant knew anything about these men is because he was working undercover in Cuba with the anti-Castro elements. This was a telex I believe from Havana. I was surprised at the degree of outrage and betrayal these factions felt when the Bay of Pigs went so badly. Many of them had been risking their lives passing on information, distributing leaflets and training to join these elite American forces when they landed. In one record I saw a quote from one of their primary inside men in Cuba and he says that "he was so mad that he was ready to take up his rifle against the United States".

Wick,

It seems to me very ironic that at during the period when US Intelligence actively planned to assassinate figures in various countries, including Castro in Cuba, when they were dealing with the kind of men that do that kind of work regardless of any affiliation with Organized Crime, when they were actively seeking to tap residences that the president, and his brother, were said to frequent for "parties", when the attorney General of the US was actively seeking to dismantle the Mafia and Organized Crime...that a head of state gets assassinated. Under some mysterious circumstances.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby.

Thankyou yes, that is one example of a clandestine cooperation which in the public mind should be unthinkable.
There's a Wiki page that mentions all the underhanded operations the CIA involved themselves in around the world. Drug running from S/E Asia is mentioned there too, and from South America, which can only have been to fund their global operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency

Oswald has had verifiable liaisons with the Russians, as we know, but it crossed my mind that this was the time when Cuba was looking for support from Russia. Past investigators have assumed that these liaisons implicated the Russians as being behind the assassination, but this may have been a misjudgement on their part. Oswald could have been there to connect with Cuban operatives through a Russian Embassy, just looking at it from a different perspective.

Yeh one of the least plausible conspiracies IMHO is that Russia was involved in some way.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi wick
One of the more plausible scenarios involving the mob and cia, is the ex Cuban patriot scenario.

Both the ex Cuban patriots and cia were pissed at JFK for not following through with air support when the pay of pigs fiasco fell apart. So after that The cia was using the ex patriots, many who had mob ties from the pre Castro Cuba casino glory days, to try to assissinate castro. When they could not get Castro , they went after the next best target, JFK, and it got turned around on him.

Hi Abby,

Typo or Freudian slip?

[Wickerman]

I am looking at the autopsy report of Jack Kennedy.
The first paragraph at the top of page 4 offers the description of the head wound at the rear.
This is what we have always believed was the entry wound.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-09.pdf

The autopsy does not describe a puncture, penetrating or perforating wound, but a lacerating wound which measures 15 x 6 mm.
A lacerating wound is a tear in the skin, a penetrating bullet wound is not a lacerating wound.

Can someone clarify why this is described that way?


I'm trying to find a description of the diameter of the entry wound to the head.
We are told the bullets used were 6.5 mm, yet this rear entry wound is given as 6 mm wide, how can a bullet 6.5 mm in diameter make a 6 mm entry wound?
What am I missing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am looking at the autopsy report of Jack Kennedy.
The first paragraph at the top of page 4 offers the description of the head wound at the rear.
This is what we have always believed was the entry wound.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-09.pdf

The autopsy does not describe a puncture, penetrating or perforating wound, but a lacerating wound which measures 15 x 6 mm.
A lacerating wound is a tear in the skin, a penetrating bullet wound is not a lacerating wound.

Can someone clarify why this is described that way?


I'm trying to find a description of the diameter of the entry wound to the head.
We are told the bullets used were 6.5 mm, yet this rear entry wound is given as 6 mm wide, how can a bullet 6.5 mm in diameter make a 6 mm entry wound?
What am I missing?

Wish I could help Jon but I’m useless with medical stuff and I don’t have any JFK books with me. It does appear to be a strange way of describing the wound though.
I once struggled through a book called Best Evidence by David Lipton which was around 600 pages of dense medical stuff about the possible ‘surgical alteration’ of the head wounds. I still have the mental scars from that experience.

[Joshua Rogan]

I am looking at the autopsy report of Jack Kennedy.
The first paragraph at the top of page 4 offers the description of the head wound at the rear.
This is what we have always believed was the entry wound.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-09.pdf

The autopsy does not describe a puncture, penetrating or perforating wound, but a lacerating wound which measures 15 x 6 mm.
A lacerating wound is a tear in the skin, a penetrating bullet wound is not a lacerating wound.

Can someone clarify why this is described that way?


I'm trying to find a description of the diameter of the entry wound to the head.
We are told the bullets used were 6.5 mm, yet this rear entry wound is given as 6 mm wide, how can a bullet 6.5 mm in diameter make a 6 mm entry wound?
What am I missing?

Seems like a pretty legit description to me, Jon. I used to do a bit of target shooting and the bullet hole was always slightly smaller than the bullet diameter. That was paper targets, mind, not flesh and bone. But this site seems to confirm it;

http://m.forensicmed.webnode.com/wounds/firearms/gunshot-wounds-rifled-weapons/

"When a bullet hits the skin surface, it causes indentation before perforation. Following perforation, elasticity causes the skin to recoil, and the resulting round, circular defect is of a slightly smaller diameter to that of the bullet. An accurate estimation of the calibre size cannot therefore be made from measuring the radius of the wound, unlike in the movies!"


"Higher velocity bullet wounds may exhibit less of an abrasion collar, but may have minute tears around the wound entrance. If the wound is made over bone, the defect may not be circular at all – these wounds tend to be stellate in shape with ragged and torn edges caused by the overstretching of skin and tearing under tension (Dana and DiMaio 1999)."

"The outer table of the skull, for example is punched inwards, creating a circular defect (or a ‘keyhole’ defect if the angle was less than perpendicular), whilst the inner table exhibits a rough chipped or bevelled defect where the amount of bone displaced covers a larger area than that lost at the outer table."

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua, thankyou for that link.
There is also another sentence which might describe the elongated wound in the skull (15mm x 6mm)

At the end of a bullets range it begins to lose axial stability and may tend to yaw and possible tumble end-over-end. If this happens, or if the bullet strikes an intermediate target (including another part of the victims body in a re-entrant wound) and becomes deformed, the resultant entry wound may be very irregular, or even slit-like, and not resemble an entrance wound at all.

Read more: http://m.forensicmed.webnode.com/wou...ifled-weapons/

The fact the hole appears to be elongated made me think the bullet was tumbling at this point, but I wondered if that was due to it striking something else first, apparently not. It is a natural result of instability at the end of its range of accuracy.