Schwartz v. Lawende

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

You've got a good memory! I never tend to remember what quote comes from which newspaper report. Of course, you're absolutely correct: Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903.

Thanks JohnG

It seems the man and his peaked cap the night of the double event made an impression on Abberline. But no specific witness did. To me that speaks volumes.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks John



Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)



I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.



Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.



But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

Hi Jon

I would tend to think that Best and gardner saw Stride with BS/peaked cap man also if it wasn't for the Bowler hat-perhaps they just got that part of the decription wrong. to me the sighting was consistant with what she was doing that night- which was going out and possibly keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend/sugar daddy having recently broken up with kidney.

I think Stride probably met BS/peaked cap man in a pub and they wandered around a bit, perhaps him buying her a few items and trying to finagle her into a secluded area.

But The thing is there were two of them-which to me makes it unlikely they were both off about the hat type. I give it 60-40 they saw some other couple.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Abby

I would tend to think that Best and gardner saw Stride with BS/peaked cap man also if it wasn't for the Bowler hat-perhaps they just got that part of the decription wrong. to me the sighting was consistant with what she was doing that night- which was going out and possibly keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend/sugar daddy having recently broken up with kidney..

The problem for me with B&G getting their description wrong of the Bricklayer`s Arms Man is that there were two of them (they both somehow agreed on the man`s description) and they also had a good, long look at the man, close up.
But, this sighting was at 11am, and Marshall saw Stride at 11.45, which isn`t much time between them, considering Stride had to the biz with Bricklayer Arms man, then pick up Marshall`s man and be wandering down Berner St by 11.45. Possible of course but I do struggle with the difference between a peaked cap and a billycock hat.

I think Stride probably met BS/peaked cap man in a pub and they wandered around a bit, perhaps him buying her a few items and trying to finagle her into a secluded area..

Personally, I`d say it was more likely she approached the men on the street.
But yes, I`ll admit she was possibly seen leaving a pub with a man.
Yes, I get the same feeling about the man trying to get her into a secluded area.
I don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.

But The thing is there were two of them-which to me makes it unlikely they were both off about the hat type. I give it 60-40 they saw some other couple.

They did identify her at the mortuary and they did get a good look at her alive.
I think it was Stride with a different man to peak capped man

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



The problem for me with B&G getting their description wrong of the Bricklayer`s Arms Man is that there were two of them (they both somehow agreed on the man`s description) and they also had a good, long look at the man, close up.
But, this sighting was at 11am, and Marshall saw Stride at 11.45, which isn`t much time between them, considering Stride had to the biz with Bricklayer Arms man, then pick up Marshall`s man and be wandering down Berner St by 11.45. Possible of course but I do struggle with the difference between a peaked cap and a billycock hat.



Personally, I`d say it was more likely she approached the men on the street.
But yes, I`ll admit she was possibly seen leaving a pub with a man.
Yes, I get the same feeling about the man trying to get her into a secluded area.
I don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.



They did identify her at the mortuary and they did get a good look at her alive.
I think it was Stride with a different man to peak capped man

Thanks Jon
That's a distinct possibility now that I think of it.

don`t like the way Marshall`s man had his arm wrapped around her neck when they were walking together, very possessive.

Yes-very possessive indeed-ominous too-"youd say anything but your prayers" more on that below.

I could see this type of man losing his temper when he doesn't get his way-as in stride refusing to go into an alley way with him.

Theres no doubt in my mind that marshals man was BS man and strides killer.


another reason that B&G might have seen stride (and/or her killer) is that during their encounter they say to stride-"that's leather apron getting round you."


So later I could envision a conversation between stride and marshalls man going something like this:

Stride: (half joking) Your not Leathor Apron are you?
Man: (also half joking) you never know
Sride: well then Id better say my prayers..
Man: youd say anything but your prayers. (overheard by Marshall)

Its also something that I think is consistant with what stride would say in that she had known afiliations with her church.

[Jon Guy]

Theres no doubt in my mind that marshals man was BS man and strides killer..

Yes, same here.
I believe it`s the simplest solution working with what facts we have to hand.

another reason that B&G might have seen stride (and/or her killer) is that during their encounter they say to stride-"that's leather apron getting round you."..

But if you were the Ripper, would you risk killing Stride, knowing that you had been seen up close, and especially if the connection was made between him and L.A. even if it was in jest.
I think they left the pub quickly once B&G started taking the piss.

So later I could envision a conversation between stride and marshalls man going something like this:

Stride: (half joking) Your not Leathor Apron are you?
Man: (also half joking) you never know
Sride: well then Id better say my prayers..
Man: youd say anything but your prayers. (overheard by Marshall)

Its also something that I think is consistant with what stride would say in that she had known afiliations with her church.

Very possibly, Abby.
But I think Stride just hung around that church for the handout`s and freebies rather than any religious fervour.
I just think she was been a bit coquettish in reply to the man.
He was asking for a quick shag, and she was playing it not too easy.
But still, possibly leading to frustration on part of the man.

[Jeff Leahy]

The quote is often cited on George Hutchinson threads, i.e. to support the argument that Abberline lost interest in Hutchinson as a witness. But, of course, the observation equally undermines Schwartz.

Hi John

Yes I know the begining well...I'd not noticed the witness from behind which could apply equally to Lawende or Schwartz

Abberline of course transfers in about May 1889... If Cox is correct they follow there suspect for three months following the last murder, and this ties with what MacNuaghten says about Kozminski March 1889.

And Anderson is still saying police didn't have a clue by August 1889

I think it clear that police tried and failed to bring a case by then and if used the witnesses failed to ID the suspect..

Hence why Abberline favours Chapman and MAcNaughten Druit... When confronted with the evidence they clearly didn't agree with COX...There simply wasn't enough to go on by March 1889.....case closed...move on

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

But if you were the Ripper, would you risk killing Stride, knowing that you had been seen up close, and especially if the connection was made between him and L.A. even if it was in jest.
I think they left the pub quickly once B&G started taking the piss.

Hi Jon,

I think its more probable that, considering that BSM and PM are at this stage still just constructs within a story and not verified people at that scene by anyone, that Liz Strides killer was not seen by any witness. Which would lend itself to someone on the property who didnt go out on the street from 12:35 to 1am.

[Michael W Richards]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Yes an interesting observation.

But if she was already with 'Jack' from the out wasn't she with him rather a long time for a prostitute?

Many thanks

Yours jeff

Hi Jeff.

It looks like, so long as the man is spending his money on her, she has no reason to dump him. It isn't every prostitute who is treated to cheese, potato and pastry or bread all washed down with ale.
No wonder she stayed with him for so long.

I wouldn't like to say if her killer was Jack, but I suspect the Smith suspect was her killer.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do."

What about this.

1. Abberline accepts the story, given:

A. Schwartz's favourable body english whilst being examined.
B. No manifest contradiction.

2. Swanson accepts, given his implicit trust in Abberline's judgment?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I'm sure Abberline was best informed about Schwartz, given that he was the principal interviewing officer, and you may be correct that Swanson is only echoing in-house opinion, not his own personal opinion.
We note Swanson only make reference to the police statement, not Schwartz's demeanor or his attitude, just what Swanson read about him.

[Rosella]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

I have never heard (and I've read a lot about Victorian England as it was one of my majors at uni) of any club, however rowdy it was, formally hiring security/bouncers etc. I'm not saying that it wouldn't ever happen, just that I've never heard of it. And how would they pay such men? This was a very poor club in a poverty stricken slum. The members wouldn't have money to put towards such a service.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abbey

Yes I tend to agree with you here....but doesn't it still strike you as odd that a prostitute would give so much time to a complete stranger?

I wonder if those arguing that Stride made herself up to meet a specific client and then changed her mind might be onto something...

Its always struck me as odd that all the other victims from Smith to Kellly, meant their attacker on the north side of the Whitechapel Road.....So why Berner Street?

Many thanks

Yours jeff

There's this myth that Stride 'made herself up' that has been going around for years. I believe this stems from the fact that many of the victims were essentially homeless and wore/carried all their belongings with them. But Stride had lived in her own place with Kidney for years and possessed good clothes. That's why the press says she doesn't look like she's from the area and there was speculation that she'd been lured there from the west side. But there's no suggestion that she looked any better that day than on any given weekend. That's just the clothes she had. What I thought was most interesting is that even though she rarely lived in the lodging house, she was able to waltz in and get paid by the deputy to do cleaning. This must have stirred the ire of longer term residences who were not so cozy with the deputy. But this idea that she got gussied up with a date for a secret boyfriend falls flat when it becomes clear she was seen with different men that evening.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John

Yes I know the begining well...I'd not noticed the witness from behind which could apply equally to Lawende or Schwartz

Abberline of course transfers in about May 1889... If Cox is correct they follow there suspect for three months following the last murder, and this ties with what MacNuaghten says about Kozminski March 1889.

And Anderson is still saying police didn't have a clue by August 1889

I think it clear that police tried and failed to bring a case by then and if used the witnesses failed to ID the suspect..

Hence why Abberline favours Chapman and MAcNaughten Druit... When confronted with the evidence they clearly didn't agree with COX...There simply wasn't enough to go on by March 1889.....case closed...move on

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, it's strange he appears to have forgotten about the Lawende sighting. However, he was a City Police witness, so would Abberline have had any involvement in the Eddowes murder inquiry?

Of course, he must have known about Lawende initially, if only from the press reports, but his recollection may have been defective. And Lawende didn't exactly come across as a very inspiring witness at the time, stating that he doubted he would recognize the suspect again. So maybe, when trying to recall events several years later, he assumed that he had only seen the suspect from the back. In fact, could he have got the suspect mixed up with Lawende's sighting of Eddowes, who he clearly only got a back view of?

[John G]

As we know, Morris Eagle wasnt the originally scheduled speaker that night. The orginal speaker was William Morris, and he was cancelled because there were threats of action by his detractors. So....it seems reasonable that up until the cancellation the club had solicited help for their security.

What if they were unable to cancel that security at the last moment, or decided to hire them on staff for the night anyway? Does anyone recall anyone mentioning Security staff being questioned?

A security person for that kind of affair would be a street tough, someone to intimidate and physically handle a situation.

What if one of those men were in the passageway when Liz enters..perhaps as early as 12:35...and after questioning her and being blown off by a cocky street wise woman who was not into being interrogated he gets angry beyond his own control and acts when she turns her back to teach this woman a lesson?

Cutting people with knives was not a rare event during that period in time, dissecting them after cutting their throats was. One brief flash of uncontrolled anger, a 2 second loss of self control....is more than enough to explain what happened in that passageway.

There are no indications whatsoever that a serial mutilator was in that passageway at any time on that night.

Murdering victims in a public area, by slitting their throat, was an exceptionally rare crime, at least for the Whitechapel area!