Schwartz v. Lawende

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree. The police in 1888 were clearly trying to solve the case to the best of their ability, whereas there are serious questions regarding the 1964 investigation. Of course, Seabrook contended that John du Rose framed Mungo Ireland, a suspect against which there was no evidence of any description linking him to the murders and, as noted, he was in Scotland when the last victim was abducted.

Hi John...I think Seabrooke was correct but for different reasons. Iteland didn't start work as a security guard until Oct 1963, so he would not have known about the electrical substation when Flemming and Brown were stored there.

However I think Seabrookes conclussion, based on what Baldock said is incorrect. I don't think it was Cushway.

Just out of interest, do you consider Elizabeth Figg and Gwynneth Rees to victims of the same serial killer? I think both a likely victims.

Yes all show sign of missing teeth which is the killers trade mark. He's a trophy collector like Jack the Ripper and Sutcliffe

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

The earliest sighting of Stride that night was around 11:00 pm with a man at the pub in Settles Street, just over the north side of Commercial Rd.
We don't know where they met, but we do know Stride came from Flower & Dean St., on the north side of Whitechapel Road.

Hi Jon

Yes an interesting observation.

But if she was already with 'Jack' from the out wasn't she with him rather a long time for a prostitute?

Many thanks

Yours jeff

[lynn cates]

methods

Hello Jeff. Thanks. Hope you are well also.

"however you figure it, it seems improbable she held onto the cachous somehow?"

Indeed. The method in my reenactment worked (on multiple trials)--let's presume there are others.

Hopefully, your partner will recover health soon and (gingerly) explore some possibilities.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

synthetic a priori

Hello John. Thanks.

"Hume's argument that no inferential justification of deduction is possible?"

No. That's INDUCTION. Deduction relies ONLY of definition and form.

"Didn't Kant attempt to answer Hume via synthetic a priori principles?"

Yes. But not all accept such a category.

But, if Kant is right, philosophy is wrong--and vice versa.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John.
Not speaking as an authority on the subject but, I'm pretty sure there was more than one type of 'soliciting'.

By way of example, we have women who prefer to solicit for brief encounters, a quick knee-trembler, and they are on their way.
Then there are others who hook up with a man who treats them to drink, and maybe pie and peas, and a bit of companionship for the night and she will stay with him until he has spent up.

I suspect Stride was the latter, and the man who killed her was the one seen by PC Smith, which was the same man she was with at the Bricklayers Arms, and quite possibly the man Packer saw her with.
And yes, I am well aware that differences exist in the descriptions of these men, though differences exist between witness descriptions today as the police can all too easily verify.

Packer was 58 yrs old, and could only see the chest of the man due to the serving window being so low, then he see's the man across the street in the dark. How many 58 year olds today don't have failing eyesight?

Then we have PC Smith who saw a man in a hard felt hat, but then later he says the hat was a deerstalker - they are not the same.
Packer changed his mind and was ridiculed for it, PC Smith changed his mind and no-one noticed.

As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do. However, my theory does not rely on Schwartz's statement, in fact you could eliminate Schwartz altogether (as some have suggested), and my theory does not change.

Hi Jon,

I could imagine, say, a West End prostitute spending a significant amount of time with a client, but I would have thought it unlikely to be the case in respect of a streetwalker in impoverished Whitechapel: unless, perhaps, like Kelly they had suitable accommodation.

Moreover, PC Smith referred to the suspect carrying a newspaper parcel which, of course, no other witnesses refers to, and I would have thought it doubtful that they would miss seeing such an object.

I also agree that Stride was almost certainly killed by PC Smith's suspect. As I've noted before, it seems likely that his time estimates were wrong and that it was close to 12:45 when he noticed Stride with the suspect. If this is correct, then the killer could have been disturbed by Mortimer arriving on her doorstep at around 12:46.

Regarding Abberline, we don't know how long he retained faith in Schwartz as a witness. However as I've noted before, when advocating Chapman as a suspect he argued that witnesses had only seen a suspect from the back, which suggests that, at this point, he no longer considered Schwartz a reliable witness.

[lynn cates]

reasons

Hello Jon.

"As for Schwartz, I can't dismiss his statement because both Abberline & Swanson seem to accept it, and they must have known more than we do."

What about this.

1. Abberline accepts the story, given:

A. Schwartz's favourable body english whilst being examined.
B. No manifest contradiction.

2. Swanson accepts, given his implicit trust in Abberline's judgment?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

He did indeed. I remember him grabbing his private parts and distinctly saying "yeah, I got your inferential justification of deduction right here."

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

I think that might possibly qualify as a Schwartz-type of recollection!

[lynn cates]

thumb and forefinger

Hello CD. Good points.

Also, she was holding them between thumb and forefinger. Very precarious.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Regarding Abberline, we don't know how long he retained faith in Schwartz as a witness. However as I've noted before, when advocating Chapman as a suspect he argued that witnesses had only seen a suspect from the back, which suggests that, at this point, he no longer considered Schwartz a reliable witness.

Hi John

Do you have the 'source' for this statement?

Could be important

Yours Jeff

[Jon Guy]

I could imagine, say, a West End prostitute spending a significant amount of time with a client, but I would have thought it unlikely to be the case in respect of a streetwalker in impoverished Whitechapel: unless, perhaps, like Kelly they had suitable accommodation.

Hi John

What about the one`s like Frances Coles, spending the weekend in lodging houses with their "dates".

That way, they would get their food, bed and booze covered for a few days.

[John G]

Hi John

Do you have the 'source' for this statement?

Could be important

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903, see:http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../19030324.html.

Abberline was expounding his theory concerning George Chapman being JtR (he went into further detail in the following week's issue). The full quote is: "One discrepancy only have I noted, and that is that the people who alleged that they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was about thirty-five or forty years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back, and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view."

The quote is often cited on George Hutchinson threads, i.e. to support the argument that Abberline lost interest in Hutchinson as a witness. But, of course, the observation equally undermines Schwartz.

[John G]

Hi John

What about the one`s like Frances Coles, spending the weekend in lodging houses with their "dates".

That way, they would get their food, bed and booze covered for a few days.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for this information, it was something I was unaware of. Do you therefore think that Stride may have been with the same man all night, or from the time of the Best and Gardner sighting?

Of course, if they had spent time in a lodging house together you would have expected witnesses to have come forward. Nonetheless, Best and Gardner mention her leaving the Bricklayer's Arms with a man, but no witnesses came forward who had seen them in, what might well have been, a busy pub.

What's also strange about this sighting is that the man was observed kissing and cuddling the woman, behaviour that clearly shocked the witnesses, particularly as the man was respectably dressed. And it doesn't suggest to me a prostitute and client relationship, more like boyfriend and girlfriend or, at the very least, two people who were well known to each other.

[John G]

Abberlines interview with the Pall mall gazette I Beleive where he's talking about his theory on chapman.

Hi Abby,

You've got a good memory! I never tend to remember what quote comes from which newspaper report. Of course, you're absolutely correct: Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March, 1903.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks John

Do you therefore think that Stride may have been with the same man all night, or from the time of the Best and Gardner sighting? .

Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)

Of course, if they had spent time in a lodging house together you would have expected witnesses to have come forward. .

I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.

Nonetheless, Best and Gardner mention her leaving the Bricklayer's Arms with a man, but no witnesses came forward who had seen them in, what might well have been, a busy pub..

Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.

What's also strange about this sighting is that the man was observed kissing and cuddling the woman, behaviour that clearly shocked the witnesses, particularly as the man was respectable dressed. And it doesn't suggest to me a prostitute and client relationship, more like boyfriend and girlfriend or, at the very least, two people who were well known to each other.

But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

[John G]

Thanks John



Could be, but I`ve always thought Best and Gardner`s man is the odd one out because of his billycock hat. Yes, he was still a short man with a moustache in a jacket.

By the way, not many people know this but fyi the witness J. Best is actually John Bass (as discovered by John Bennett)



I don`t think Stride made it to the lodging house.



Didn`t Bass and Gardner only see the couple as they were entering the pub, and Stride and her companion were stood in the doorway of the pub waiting for a shower to pass.
I fit was a busy pub, there was more chance they would have just blended in and not being particularly noticed.



But wasn`t it a case of the man being all over Stride, rather than the both of them going for it ? Now, if it had been Stride all over the man, that could indicate a relationship

Hi Jon,

Yes, I've just checked Best's account and he did say that they were stood in the doorway of the pub. In fact, he actually said to the man, "Why don't you bring the woman in and treat her?" But he didn't respond. He also claimed that the man "threw sidelong glanced into the bar" and wouldn't look anyone in the face. And, at one point, Best said to the woman, "that's leather apron getting round you."

Best also implied that it was the man who was initiating intimacy, i.e. he was kissing and cuddling the woman.

I agree that the billycock hat is a bit of problem, and thanks for the info about J Best being John Bass, it was something I was unaware of.