Schwartz v. Lawende

[John G]

fair enough JohnG
But I think PC smiths suspect WAS BS man, and folks are just off a bit on timings and descriptions.

Hi Abby,

If you look at Gavin's excellent dissertation it appears that PC Smith was out by about 10 minutes with his timings. In fact, his estimate of 12:30-35 was clearly based upon the false premise that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am, when it was probably closer to 1:10. That suggests that he could have seen Stride with the suspect at close to 12:45(Gavin thinks closer to 12:45 than 12:40) and, assuming they were waiting for PC Smith to get out of sight before going into Dutfield's Yard (assuming Stride was soliciting) then the killer could have been disturbed by Mortimer coming to her doorstep at about 12:46 or just after.

[Robert St Devil]

Jon g.

The neckerchief plays out alot thru this case - on the victims, mjk losing hers, etc. even if it wasnt tight, it could have been turned like a tourniquet. If he had the womans confidence - as in the case of Stride - he could have presented it as a gift, and while tying it about her neck, choked her out. I favor this thought re: Stride since it could help explain her "silent screaming". He also seemed to be very aware of its position when it came to slashing her throat.

On a side note: has there ever been an attempt to establish Hutchinson as blotchy skin man? I remember reading a news report written about the day he came forward; there was an observation that it looked like he had had a boil recently removed from his face.

[S.Brett]

Hi Jon,

It is me again.

"Not wet with rain" is an awkward turn of phrase. Such a choice of words seems more applicable to her clothes being wet by something, but not rain.
Which I am sure was not actually the case.

The phrase reads to me like the clothes were not ringing wet or soaked as we might say, but only damp. Quite likely due to her clothes being wet earlier in the night, but had since absorbed the wet.
It certainly does not mean they were dry, as has been interpreted by Tom.

There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head.

Did it mean that Stride was lying (with her face) on a moist ground? Therefore it is possible that the clothes on her back were "wet", too?

What do you think?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Well, it's certainly a very creative explanation!

Its the best I can come up with. having like many looked at this over a long time, but there are so many things that always puzzle me about this murder..

One thing is for sure, for some reason this one on many different levels was different from the rest.

The difficulty is, to make Schwartz's evidence make sense you have to completely 're-write it. Personally, I can't see how he was mistaken about Stride being thrown to the ground, and we're told that he "got as far as the gateway" so he must have been very close to the action. In fact, what you seem to be describing is a highly dynamic struggle, with BS man trying to get Stride into the street, Stride resisting, turning on BS Man, Stride running into the Yard, BS man grabbing the scarf and pulling her arm behind her back, rendering her unconscious, BS man moving with Stride into the Yard-where presumably he would be out of sight of Schwartz (which Schwartz doesn't mention), and lowering the body...Phew!

There could be so many different reasons for the various inconsistencies.. I tend to work to him telling the truth to the best of his ability with translation and over zealous press reporting getting in the way..

I can't see Schwartz missing all of this particularly as we can't assume that he remained in a stationary position himself. I agree with you about screaming not very loudly being a contradiction, but I still don't think anyone would misinterpret a scream for someone choking-the sounds are radically different. More likely Schwartz realised his mistake , i.e. because the question was raised as to why no one else heard the screams, and corrected himself.

I'm not suggesting that Schwartz necessarily was mistaken, simply that the translator might have had difficulty explaining what he had seen

Yours Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

If you look at Gavin's excellent dissertation it appears that PC Smith was out by about 10 minutes with his timings. In fact, his estimate of 12:30-35 was clearly based upon the false premise that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am, when it was probably closer to 1:10. That suggests that he could have seen Stride with the suspect at close to 12:45(Gavin thinks closer to 12:45 than 12:40) and, assuming they were waiting for PC Smith to get out of sight before going into Dutfield's Yard (assuming Stride was soliciting) then the killer could have been disturbed by Mortimer coming to her doorstep at about 12:46 or just after.

Hi JohnG

well i think the most likely scenario is that Marshalls man, PC smiths man and BS man is the same man. And after PC passed them by, he tried to get stride one last time into the secluded alley, and when she refused he left her only to lose his temper return a short while later (this is where Schwartz enters the scene) and attack her. I think he pulled her scarf tight during the initial struggle or used it to drag her the few steps out of sight where he cut her throat and then fled.
and of course she just held onto the cashoo throughout and Mortimer had nothing to do with any of it.

[Wickerman]

Good Morning, Jon!



To be honest I was not aware of that:

At three o'clock p.m. on Monday at St. George's Mortuary, Dr. Blackwell and I made a post mortem examination.

But I have no idea about "digestion postmortem".

Digestive acid is still present, the digestive process stops at death, I think it is the process that you are concerned with.

To clarify, the process of conversion ceases at death, but the stomach acid is still present, it does not disappear at the point of death.
Due to grape 'flesh' being largely water it wouldn't take much stomach acid to dilute/dissolve grape 'flesh'.

[c.d.]

I just did a quick google search using the terms "fall catch yourself with hands outstretched." A number of responses show up mostly medical and sports related. You see over and over that it is natural to land on your outstretched hands.

So with respect to Stride, the more violent that you envision her encounter with the B.S. man the more likely it is that not only in falling and in getting up but attempting to fight him off as he is dragging her the cachous are going to spill.

And yes, the correct spelling is cachous. Sheesh.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

This scenario is, of course, inconsistent with a common domestic incident, and suggests that her killer had planned to commit murder. Moreover, as I noted earlier, I think it unlikely that Stride would have entered Dutfield's Yard voluntarily with a man who had just assaulted her, let alone turned her back on him.

My interpretation is that Stride was not alone in Dutfields Yard when BS-man passed, I don't accept for one minute that she was standing there by herself.

Stride had not been seen alone all night, at every sighting she was with a man, I see no reason to believe otherwise at Dutfields Yard. Schwartz just didn't see her client, which is not surprising given how dark the entrance was. Schwartz was solely concerned with the avoiding the altercation and perhaps saving his own skin.

[Wickerman]

[/I]Morris Eagle said her feet were towards the gate,which Mr N correctly notes means her feet were towards the gate, as opposed to her head.

Thats correct Jon, he was only indicating the alignment of her body.

[Joshua Rogan]

My interpretation is that Stride was not alone in Dutfields Yard when BS-man passed, I don't accept for one minute that she was standing there by herself.

Stride had not been seen alone all night, at every sighting she was with a man, I see no reason to believe otherwise at Dutfields Yard. Schwartz just didn't see her client, which is not surprising given how dark the entrance was. Schwartz was solely concerned with the avoiding the altercation and perhaps saving his own skin.

Schwartz may not have seen anyone with Stride, but it seems unlikely to me that BS man wouldn't have noticed someone, and either been given pause for thought or involved them both.
Perhaps she was standing alone in the gateway, not necessarily for any immoral purpose, but simply because her companion/client had popped into the yard to use the toilets?

[Tom_Wescott]

Guys,

As an exercise, I think we should all consider the Berner Street murder sans Schwartz. Pretend Schwartz never came forward and we don't have his story. We have Brown, Smith, Mortimer, but no Schwartz. And then see what happens.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Hi JohnG

well i think the most likely scenario is that Marshalls man, PC smiths man and BS man is the same man. And after PC passed them by, he tried to get stride one last time into the secluded alley, and when she refused he left her only to lose his temper return a short while later (this is where Schwartz enters the scene) and attack her. I think he pulled her scarf tight during the initial struggle or used it to drag her the few steps out of sight where he cut her throat and then fled.
and of course she just held onto the cashoo throughout and Mortimer had nothing to do with any of it.

Hi Abby,

The police doubted that PC Smith and Schwartz were describing the same man. The Report stated: "It will be observed that allowing for differences of opinion between the PC and Schwartz as to the apparent age and height of the man each saw with woman...there are serious differences in the description of the dress:-thus the PC describes the dress of the man he saw as black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, while Schwartz describes the dress of the man he saw as dark jacket, black cap with peak, so that it is rendered at least doubtful whether they are describing the same man."

[John G]

Guys,

As an exercise, I think we should all consider the Berner Street murder sans Schwartz. Pretend Schwartz never came forward and we don't have his story. We have Brown, Smith, Mortimer, but no Schwartz. And then see what happens.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I agree!

[John G]

My interpretation is that Stride was not alone in Dutfields Yard when BS-man passed, I don't accept for one minute that she was standing there by herself.

Stride had not been seen alone all night, at every sighting she was with a man, I see no reason to believe otherwise at Dutfields Yard. Schwartz just didn't see her client, which is not surprising given how dark the entrance was. Schwartz was solely concerned with the avoiding the altercation and perhaps saving his own skin.

Hi Jon,

It's an interesting point about Stride not being seen by herself that night. However, if she was soliciting, there surely must have been such periods. I think your scenario is reasonably plausible, however, it would still mean accepting that no-one else heard the altercation, as well as the lack of physical evidence: the lack of injuries to the victim, i e. grazing/bruising to indicate that she'd been involved in an altercation, and the fact the dress wasn't damaged.

Of course, there's also the question of Schwartz's very different police/press accounts,which I think seriously undermines him.

And, if the revised timings for PC Smith's beat are accepted, I doubt I'd they'd be time for the Schwartz incident to have occurred before Mortimer arrived on her doorstep.

[John G]

I just did a quick google search using the terms "fall catch yourself with hands outstretched." A number of responses show up mostly medical and sports related. You see over and over that it is natural to land on your outstretched hands.

So with respect to Stride, the more violent that you envision her encounter with the B.S. man the more likely it is that not only in falling and in getting up but attempting to fight him off as he is dragging her the cachous are going to spill.

And yes, the correct spelling is cachous. Sheesh.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Thanks for this. Yes, it does seem highly unlikely that Stride would have held on to the cachous whilst being thrown/pushed to the ground and, as you say, whilst attempting to fight him off, i.e. during the period when Schwartz describes BS man attempting to pull her into the street, or if you envisage him dragging her into the yard, when she surely would have been resisting.

I also agree that, in respect of alternative scenarios, the more dynamic the struggle the less likelihood Stride managed to retain hold of the cachous.

Thanks for confirming the spelling of "cachous"!