Schwartz v. Lawende

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael!

Golden Lane (Eddowes)

St. George's Mortuary (Stride)

Karsten.

Youre right Karsten, my bad. At work skimming too quickly I guess. Thanks, and sorry to Jon.

[Joshua Rogan]

Wasn't this actually said to be a sign of Packer's veracity, when he was taken to view the 'wrong' body first (on purpose) and said that it wasn't the woman he'd served?

[drstrange169]

Hello Michael,

Since the police and populous believed (rightly or wrongly) the murderer committed another whilst all the people present at the club were under police detention, the debate seems unproductive.

[Jeff Leahy]

"Between seven and eight o'clock, on Saturday evening last (27 October 1888) , I was standing with my barrow at the corner of Greenfield-street, Commercial-road, when I saw a man pass by on the opposite side of Greenfield-street, near the watchmaker's shop. I recognized him in a minute as the man I had seen outside my shop on the night when Elizabeth Stride was murdered in Berner-street. It was the man who bought the grapes and gave them to the woman that was afterwards found murdered in the yard. I shall never forget his face, and should know him again amongst a thousand men."
Yours Karsten.

Hi Karsten

I'd not noticed the detail of this before, when he says opposite side of Greenfield Street does he mean the other side of Commercial Road?

Perhaps someone could pin point the watch makers shop?

I also can't see the logic in why Packer would make this up or why Le Grande would want him to?

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Jeff,

I'd not noticed the detail of this before, when he says opposite side of Greenfield Street does he mean the other side of Commercial Road?

Perhaps someone could pin point the watch makers shop?

At the southern end of Greenfield Street were (1891) a Public House/69-71 Commercial Road (on the left side) and a watchmaker shop, Harry Hardt, 73 Commercial Road (on the right side). If Packer was standing near the Public House 69-71 (and it looks that way) he could have seen the man opposite the Pub IN Greeenfield Street near the watchmaker shop of Harry Hardt (No.73). The frontsides of the Pub and of the shop were in Commercial Road and "the rest" were in Greenfield Road... so to speak...

There were two others watchmaker shops around. 53 Commercial Road and in 24 Charles Street between Plumberīs Row and Greenfield Street. But I guess he meant the shop no. 73.

I also can't see the logic in why Packer would make this up or why Le Grande would want him to?

It is interesting that Packer saw this man in Greenfield Street. The "Prime Suspect" (Aaron Kozminski)īs family lived there until he was addmitted to Colney Hatch.

But by reading Tom Westcottībooks we could learn something new...

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

But by reading Tom Westcottībooks we could learn something new...

Yours Karsten.

It never surprises me how much new stuff there is to learn

I think like many people I've always been suspicious of Packer and that caution comes from some to the best known authors..

But since some of your observations the term 'Baby and bath water' jumps to mind...Hopefully if Tom has some new stuff to say, perhaps a thread on Packer 'revisited' might be of interest...I have no particular position and often those are the best...I'll check it out also.

Yours Jeff

PS I'm certainly not one for gloating over this afternoons Sunday roast when i know those poor American ripperologists are huddled around a candle contemplating eating dried powdered egg and raw spaghetti throw another log on the fire

[S.Brett]

Apart from my idea of a "Seaside Home-Millerīs Court- witness", there is a chance that BS Man, seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, was the Seaside Home witness.

If he was the man heard (fleeing) by Fanny Mortimer at 12.45am after he had a quarrel with Stride there is the possibility that he "had a good view of the murderer". Perhaps, Schwartz and Pipeman were unable to see that man (standing inside Dutfieldīs Yard)... a man seen by PC Smith shortly before and by Packer during the evening...

Packers: a young man from 25-30 and PC Smith about 28 years of age were "not far away from" Aaron Kozminski 23 years of age...

I guess the Police found this witness in the second half of 1890. Maybe, in a case like this (BS Man), the witness surrendered to police albeit belatedly... he would have attacked a Ripper victim and was afraid of the police...

If he saw the same couple as PC Smith, this time at the entrance of Dutfieldīs Yard, perhaps he spoke to them and said: F... O..!

With shock and due to the darkness Schwartz and Pipeman did not notice the third person (who made a step back)

But, of course, pure speculation again...

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

... Bethink, Packer stated: "...that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman". This could imply that Stride and Kosminski knew each other (and he knew the Dutfieldīs Yard very well because in past years he had lived next to it) and the reason why Stride "screamed three times, but not loudly" is: She was not standing alone at the entrance of Dutfieldīs Yard, there was a man next to her whom she knew from roaming the streets. Perhaps she was not really afraid of (drunken) BS Man. No need to yell...

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe that we do see the situation in similar terms Tom. Where we differ perhaps is where to put our money on the witness testimonies. I believe Israel isnt a horse to back for the same reasons you cite above....ensuring the situation was diffused.

I struggle more and more to believe in Schwartz as time goes on. But I feel that when you have a witness that was believed in by someone like Abberline, and touted to Swanson, who in turn promoted his evidence to Home Office over that of even one of his own constables (Smith), then deciding he was lying 120 odd years later is a last resort.

But as I'm working up a new timeline for my upcoming book, I'm finding the times work out harmoniously without Schwartz but become a real brain puzzle when you try to squeeze him in there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

It is interesting that Packer saw this man in Greenfield Street. The "Prime Suspect" (Aaron Kozminski)īs family lived there until he was addmitted to Colney Hatch.

But by reading Tom Westcottībooks we could learn something new...

Thanks for that, Karsten. As for Packer, he did give a completely true statement, and that was his first one to Stephen White when he said quite plainly he saw no one around. Everything he said after that was a lie, and provably so. Abberline knew it. Why? Because Packer had Stride standing in the rain eating grapes for 15 minutes. But Stride's clothes were completely dry, it didn't rain after 11pm, and Dr. Phillips found no seeds nor skin of grape in her stomach. Game over, Packer out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

The Seaside Home witness seems most likely to have been Lawende. Either Schwartz was long gone from London by then or they'd decided he hadn't been a good witness. Or maybe he just refused to be used as a witness again. Hard to say. BS Man was most certainly not the witness and Pipeman was not Jewish, so it was either Schwartz, Lawende, or one of the other Mitre Square witnesses, but most likely Lawende. It's quite interesting, if not telling, that Abberline doesn't mention his own witness, Schwartz, in telling his George Chapman theories.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

The Seaside Home witness seems most likely to have been Lawende. Either Schwartz was long gone from London by then or they'd decided he hadn't been a good witness. Or maybe he just refused to be used as a witness again. Hard to say. BS Man was most certainly not the witness and Pipeman was not Jewish, so it was either Schwartz, Lawende, or one of the other Mitre Square witnesses, but most likely Lawende. It's quite interesting, if not telling, that Abberline doesn't mention his own witness, Schwartz, in telling his George Chapman theories.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

And, of course, we have Abberline's comments:" ...the people who alleged that they saw Jack the Ripper at one time or another, state that he was a man of 34 or 35 years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back , and it is easy to misjudge age from a back view. "

It has often been said that this undermines Hutchinson's account, but it also undermines Schwartz as well, unless Abberline didn't believe that Stride was a Ripper victim.

And, as I noted in my earlier post, PC Smith may well have seen Stride with the suspect close to 12:45, rather than 12:35, which would explain explain why Mortimer heard the heavy tread of a policeman passing by just before she went to her doorstep at around 12:46.

Of course, if correct, this timeline would also seriously undermine Schwartz.

[Jeff Leahy]

... Bethink, Packer stated: "...that he had often seen the man before the murder, as well as the woman". This could imply that Stride and Kosminski knew each other (and he knew the Dutfieldīs Yard very well because in past years he had lived next to it) and the reason why Stride "screamed three times, but not loudly" is: She was not standing alone at the entrance of Dutfieldīs Yard, there was a man next to her whom she knew from roaming the streets. Perhaps she was not really afraid of (drunken) BS Man. No need to yell...

This is an interesting idea? Stride definately seems different from the other women, and was said to have worked for jews....

Kozminski had a strong hatred of woman. Is it possible he had arranged to meet Stride, that their was a connection other than casual prostitution?

A number of ripperologists have speculated that Stride might have been meeting a specific person on the night of her death, and if your theory about the man seen by Marshal, PC Smith and later Schwartz are the same man who stops and argues, then Stride appears to have been with him a long time for a client?

Did Stride know Aaron Kozminski?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

The Seaside Home witness seems most likely to have been Lawende. Either Schwartz was long gone from London by then or they'd decided he hadn't been a good witness. Or maybe he just refused to be used as a witness again. Hard to say. BS Man was most certainly not the witness and Pipeman was not Jewish, so it was either Schwartz, Lawende, or one of the other Mitre Square witnesses, but most likely Lawende. It's quite interesting, if not telling, that Abberline doesn't mention his own witness, Schwartz, in telling his George Chapman theories.

Yours truly, Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

There's a lot of problems with Lawende being the Seaside home witness...

For a start shortly after Kozminski enters the Colney Hatch Asylum, Lawende was again used as a witness.... As Begg pointed it it seems totally unfeasible that having positively identified Kozminski and refused to give evidence against him that the police would then knock on his door and say 'You know that guy you said was definitely Jack the Ripper and you let off the hook' well we've got a different man in the cells would you have a look at him?'

It doesn't really make sense. Besides why would Lawende cooperate with police if he didn't intend to testify? Again that doesn't make sense, he seems very helpful to the police. Several top cops thought him their best witness.

So for me Schwartz has always been a better bet as the Seaside Home witness, its possible he had a better view of the suspect than Lawende...

What Karsten has been arguing over the last few months however rules out both Schwartz and Lawende, in that Kozminski came to police attention early.

Therefore why wait two years to do an ID?

Surely if Lawende and Schwartz were used they failed to make an ID... because according to Cox the man he followed and was suspected was at large almost three months after the last murder and MacNAughten pin points that date as March 1889.

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

Thanks for that, Karsten. As for Packer, he did give a completely true statement, and that was his first one to Stephen White when he said quite plainly he saw no one around. Everything he said after that was a lie, and provably so. Abberline knew it. Why? Because Packer had Stride standing in the rain eating grapes for 15 minutes. But Stride's clothes were completely dry, it didn't rain after 11pm, and Dr. Phillips found no seeds nor skin of grape in her stomach. Game over, Packer out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Thanks. The rain and the grapes, of course, count against Packer but:

Packer said I sold him 1/2 pound black grapes 3d and then, she was eating the grapes? Who said that? Did I miss a thing? Did she like grapes at all? I have black grapes in my garden and I do not like them. Hard seeds and hard skins and every time I eat them I spit them out, only eating the fruit/juice pulp.

Stride: All the teeth on the lower left jaw were absent I think Stride had some problems eating certain foods (more "drinking" the grapes).

Packerīs first statement closed his shop at 12.30am that morning and the second On Sat night about 11pm... 1/2 an hour till I shd. say 11.30. talking to one another. I then shut up my shutters could imply that Packer was not sure about the time estimate...

Dull morning; fine day; sudden heavy rain at "9.5p.m." lasting till after midnight...

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

sudden heavy rain at "9.5p.m." lasting till after midnight

J. Best, 82, Lower Chapman-street, said:

I was in the Bricklayers' Arms, Settles-street, about two hundred yards from the scene of the murder on Saturday night, shortly before eleven, and saw a man and a woman in the doorway. They had been served in the public house, and went out when me and my friends came in. It was raining very fast, and they did not appear willing to go out

PC Smith at the inquest:

[Coroner] Did you see the man's face? - He had no whiskers, but I did not notice him much. I should say he was twenty-eight years of age. He was of respectable appearance, but I could not state what he was. The woman had a flower in her breast. It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

William Marshall, examined by the Coroner, said:

While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all

Dr. Blackwell:

The clothes were not wet with rain.

Stride was a prostitute roaming the streets and was seen by some witnesses... went out but did not appear willing to go out when It was raining very fast shortly before eleven (Best)... It rained very little after eleven o'clock (PC Smith/ at 12.30/12.35am???)... from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all (Marshall)...

sudden heavy rain at "9.5p.m." lasting till after midnight but The clothes were not wet with rain

It seems to me there was no heavy rain after midnight, it was there shortly before eleven and it stopped around 11.00pm and after eleven o'clock it rained very little (till 11.30pm) and then,from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all. If Stride came from a pub at 11.00pm and went to Packer who saw her standing until 11.30pm when it rained very little so it is possible that she, after 11.30pm (no rain at all), had time enough to getting dry.

Karsten.