Schwartz v. Lawende

[S.Brett]

Besides if the suspect seen by Smith is Kozminski, then Koz has plenty of time to go to Matildas Home in Greenfield street drop off or open the parcel and return infront of schwartz

Also the suspect need not be drunk only appear drunk, and people suffering psychotic episodes are often described as if 'appearing drunk'

Yes Jeff, that is correct. You know we agree...

Assumed that the "violet scarf" man was Kosminski (found near Mitre Street on 1 October 1888) possibly "seen" by a constable near Mitre Square with Eddowes, and by Joseph Lawende ("red neckerchief") in Duke Street/Church Passage on the night of the Double Event, but with the result that both witnesses were not absolutely convinced that he is the man they had seen... and assumed that Israel Schwartz was not able to say that this suspect is the man (BS Man) he had seen in Berner Street/Dutfields Yard but Matthew Packer (later in October) confirmed that he know Kosminski (Violet Scarf Man) by sight and this man ist the man he saw with Stride on the night of the Double Event... in such a case, what would the police do?

Kosminski could have said that he was in Berner Street because his brother is living there (Providence Street) and in the case of Mitre Street he could have said that he is working in Butchers Row, Aldgate High Street at night. Mitre Street/Square is around the corner... what would the police do?

And I think it is quite possible that Kosminski was injured on the Double Event. Maybe just a small wound. Perhaps this was the reason for the piece of apron (taken to stop the bleeding) that was found in Goulston Street and belonged to the apron of Eddowes. Imagine that the wound became infected he could have been the inmate of the East End Infirmary who was watched by the police in October 1888.

Perhaps he belonged to the family with the bloody clothes found in Batty Street. When one of his brothers picked up the laundry the police interviewed him with the result that the shirt could belong "Kosminski" (the Violet Scarf Man and what a surprise for the police!!!) who is now an inmate of a East End Infirmary. He (the brother) spoke about an accident, "cutting his corn" (see Rob House, "Prime Suspect") but possibly he lied because this family became very frightened... maybe they did notice the area of the crime scenes... nearby certain places... the former home at the Dutfieldīs Yard, the brotherīs home in Providence Street/Berner Street... the shop he worked (at night) near Mitre Square (Butchers Row, Aldgate High Street) and maybe a shop where "Kosminski" worked and lived... not far from the other crime scenes (Smith, Tabram, Chapman)... what would the police do?

Karsten.

[John G]

Yes, John! Sounds convincing: "she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat".



Okay but what did she hear at all between 12.30 - 01.00?

Hi Karsten,

Of course, the difficulty is that we seem to have two different versions of Mortimer's statement. In one version she's on her doorstep for virtually the whole period between 12:30 and 1:00am, whereas in the other accounts be only goes outside after hearing the "heavy tramp of a policeman", and then returns inside about 10 minutes later, i.e. just after seeing Goldstein pass by. Then around 4 minutes after this she hears the approach of Louis' pony and cart.

I think the second version is far more plausible, as it neatly accords with most of the known facts...well, assuming that PC Smith passed by closer to 12:45 than 12:35!

[John G]

The crown of her head pointed towards the yard proper. The left side of her head rested across a jagged rock that was part of the make-shift gutter (and not a wheel rut that one paper mentioned) and her face therefore was towards the club wall, albeit at an angle. If you stood her up from this position she would be standing facing the wall just behind the right gate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Well, if Stride was stood facing the wall, with her back to the killer, when she was presumably subjected to a surprise attack, I would have thought that this was consistent with Stride entering the yard for purposes of prostitution. The taking our if the cachous, to freshen her breath, also supports this conclusion.

The point being, of course, is that in this scenario Stride must have entered the yard, with her killer, voluntarily, suggesting that she had no reason to be wary of him. I doubt if this would have been the case if the man had just assaulted her. And, of course, unlike Polly, Stride wasn't in a desperate situation, so presumably could be more discerning about who she chose to go into pitch black deserted passages with!

[S.Brett]

I think the second version is far more plausible...

Hi John, I agree...

well, assuming that PC Smith passed by closer to 12:45 than 12:35!

But it seems that PC Smith walked opposite the Dutfieldīs Yard when he saw the couple, not on the pavement on the side where Mrs. Mortimer lived... he walked opposite Mortimerīs home and she said:

she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat

Sounds like when someone was passing by on "her" pavement...

There is a chance for BS Man at 12.45am and in this case... he was not the Stride Murder...

Karsten.

[John G]

Hi John, I agree...



But it seems that PC Smith walked opposite the Dutfieldīs Yard when he saw the couple, not on the pavement on the side where Mrs. Mortimer lived... he walked opposite Mortimerīs home and she said:

she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat

Sounds like when someone was passing by on "her" pavement...

There is a chance for BS Man at 12.45am and in this case... he was not the Stride Murder...

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Yes, that's a fair point. However, I still feel that it's likely Mortimer would have been able to differentiate the sound of a policeman passing from, say, that of other footsteps: as I noted earlier, a police officer must have walked past about every 30 minutes, so it would have been a sound that she was very familiar with. And might it not have been PC Smith's normal routine to pass by on that side of the street, so it was the sound of him passing by on the opposite side to her residence that she was familiar with?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Karsten,

Yes, that's a fair point. However, I still feel that it's likely Mortimer would have been able to differentiate the sound of a policeman passing from, say, that of other footsteps: as I noted earlier, a police officer must have walked past about every 30 minutes, so it would have been a sound that she was very familiar with. And might it not have been PC Smith's normal routine to pass by on that side of the street, so it was the sound of him passing by on the opposite side to her residence that she was familiar with?

Ive been following some of the more recent posts and Im glad to see that people are trying to fit these timing jigsaw pieces together and make sense of the 12:30 to 1:00am period.

On the above that I made bold, you would also think that she would have heard multiple source bootsteps from inside her house, maybe also a cry out from a lady in distress, or a shout across the road at a bystander.

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten,

Yes, that's a fair point. However, I still feel that it's likely Mortimer would have been able to differentiate the sound of a policeman passing from, say, that of other footsteps: as I noted earlier, a police officer must have walked past about every 30 minutes, so it would have been a sound that she was very familiar with. And might it not have been PC Smith's normal routine to pass by on that side of the street, so it was the sound of him passing by on the opposite side to her residence that she was familiar with?

It seems possible at the first glance, John... but as Tom Wescott already noticed:

This works if Schwartz's story was a lie and if PC Smith lied about his times in order to keep from admitting that he was behind on his rounds.

... and Mrs. Mortimer telling the truth?

Schwartzīs story was a lie?

What do you think?

Karsten.

[John G]

Ive been following some of the more recent posts and Im glad to see that people are trying to fit these timing jigsaw pieces together and make sense of the 12:30 to 1:00am period.

On the above that I made bold, you would also think that she would have heard multiple source bootsteps from inside her house, maybe also a cry out from a lady in distress, or a shout across the road at a bystander.

Hello Michael,

Yes, I agree, which causes problems for Schwartz's evidence, even supposing that he may have witnessed the altercation significantly earlier than he estimated.

[John G]

It seems possible at the first glance, John... but as Tom Wescott already noticed:



... and Mrs. Mortimer telling the truth?

Schwartzīs story was a lie?

What do you think?

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

I don't think Mortimer was lying, although she may have made a mistake with her timings. However, her evidence does make sense if you accept the second version of her account, particularly if PC Smith passed by at closer to 12:45, than 12:35.

Thus, he passes by at, say, around 12:43, and Stride and her killer then cross the road and enter the yard. Fanny goes to her door at 12:45, disturbing the perpetrator, who is forced to hide in the shadows. She goes back inside after seeing Goldstein walk past, so about 12:56. Stride's murderer uses this opportunity to make good his escape- if he was JtR, he reasons that he would be pushing his luck to spend more time mutilating the victim, particularly as he risks being disturbed by someone either entering the yard via the gate, or exiting the club by the side door. At 1:00am Stride hears the approach of Louis' pony and cart, by which time her assailant is well out of sight.

PC Smith may have lied, i.e. because he was behind on his beat-perhaps, on such a cold, autumnal night, he'd dropped in somewhere on his beat for some welcome refreshments! Of course, he may have simply underestimated the time-there's no evidence he had a watch, and PC Lamb, for instance, certainly didn't have a watch.

Regarding Schwartz, he may have lied, or perhaps he overestimated the time and witnessed a simple domestic assault at, say, between 12:15 and 12:30. This might not have involved Stride, considering that there were cleanly other couples in the neighbourhood that night.

Could he have witnessed an assault on Stride before her killer appeared on the scene, or whilst he hid in Dutfield's Yard? Possibly, but the timings are very tight, and it still doesn't explain why no-one else heard anything, or lack of evidence to suggest that Stride had been involved in the type of altercation that Schwartz describes, i.e. damage to dress, bruising, cuts or grazes.

And a major difficulty is the significant discrepancies, that I've highlighted, between his press and police accounts. As I see it, it's very difficult to find a plausible, innocent explanation for this.

[Michael W Richards]

There seems to be a need to assume that someone is lying in order to validate some of the other witnesses, a question that arises should be...whom among the various might have a need to fudge on their statements or modify their statements in order to preserve their income or reputation?

[c.d.]

I don't believe that Mortimer was lying but neither do I take her statement to be the word of God. By her own admission she was at her door "nearly" the whole time. Now what exactly does that mean? Was she away for 3 minutes? 5 minutes? Or possibly 10? Or does she mean that she was there off and on the whole time? Was she away to pee or make a pot of tea? What about tending to her sick husband and five children? Lots of unknowns here.

And again, just because someone might have had a reason to lie does not NECESSARILY mean that they did so.

c.d.

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten,

I don't think Mortimer was lying, although she may have made a mistake with her timings. However, her evidence does make sense if you accept the second version of her account, particularly if PC Smith passed by at closer to 12:45, than 12:35.

Thus, he passes by at, say, around 12:43, and Stride and her killer then cross the road and enter the yard. Fanny goes to her door at 12:45, disturbing the perpetrator, who is forced to hide in the shadows. She goes back inside after seeing Goldstein walk past, so about 12:56. Stride's murderer uses this opportunity to make good his escape- if he was JtR, he reasons that he would be pushing his luck to spend more time mutilating the victim, particularly as he risks being disturbed by someone either entering the yard via the gate, or exiting the club by the side door. At 1:00am Stride hears the approach of Louis' pony and cart, by which time her assailant is well out of sight.

PC Smith may have lied, i.e. because he was behind on his beat-perhaps, on such a cold, autumnal night, he'd dropped in somewhere on his beat for some welcome refreshments! Of course, he may have simply underestimated the time-there's no evidence he had a watch, and PC Lamb, for instance, certainly didn't have a watch.

Regarding Schwartz, he may have lied, or perhaps he overestimated the time and witnessed a simple domestic assault at, say, between 12:15 and 12:30. This might not have involved Stride, considering that there were cleanly other couples in the neighbourhood that night.

Could he have witnessed an assault on Stride before her killer appeared on the scene, or whilst he hid in Dutfield's Yard? Possibly, but the timings are very tight, and it still doesn't explain why no-one else heard anything, or lack of evidence to suggest that Stride had been involved in the type of altercation that Schwartz describes, i.e. damage to dress, bruising, cuts or grazes.

And a major difficulty is the significant discrepancies, that I've highlighted, between his press and police accounts. As I see it, it's very difficult to find a plausible, innocent explanation for this.

Thank you, John!

If all these people were incorrect in their dates, and this is not impossible, then we have many options... and no one was lying... they thought they were correct...

Karsten.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't believe that Mortimer was lying but neither do I take her statement to be the word of God. By her own admission she was at her door "nearly" the whole time. Now what exactly does that mean? Was she away for 3 minutes? 5 minutes? Or possibly 10? Or does she mean that she was there off and on the whole time? Was she away to pee or make a pot of tea? What about tending to her sick husband and five children? Lots of unknowns here.

And again, just because someone might have had a reason to lie does not NECESSARILY mean that they did so.

c.d.

With Fanny Mortimer cd we have evidence that she was at her door off and on until around 12:50 when she stayed at her door until 1am, but we also have evidence from her that when she was not at her door she could hear what transpired on the street. So she is a valuable source of information whether inside or out.

[John G]

Thank you, John!

If all these people were incorrect in their dates, and this is not impossible, then we have many options... and no one was lying... they thought they were correct...

Karsten.

Hi Karsten,

Yes, it's all a bit confusing! Interestingly, PC Smith stated that his beat took about 25-30 minutes to complete. However, he arrived at the murder scene after PC Lamb, who got to Dutfield's Yard around 1:05. This suggests that it may well have been after 12:40 when he saw Stride with the suspect.

[John G]

I don't believe that Mortimer was lying but neither do I take her statement to be the word of God. By her own admission she was at her door "nearly" the whole time. Now what exactly does that mean? Was she away for 3 minutes? 5 minutes? Or possibly 10? Or does she mean that she was there off and on the whole time? Was she away to pee or make a pot of tea? What about tending to her sick husband and five children? Lots of unknowns here.

And again, just because someone might have had a reason to lie does not NECESSARILY mean that they did so.

c.d.

Also, I think a lot depends on whether you accept version 1 or version 2 of her statement, always assuming that version 2 does relate to Mortimer!