Schwartz v. Lawende

[Abby Normal]

Actually I believe PC Long when he says the apron "was not there" when he passed by around 2:20am, so the killer had ample time to drop the organs off and then head out with the apron to place it at the Model Homes. Why place it where almost 100% of the residents were Jewish immigrants? That's where I believe the writing comes into play.

I do not see the location of the apron indicating the direct path home.

Of course. Yes I totally agree with this. Like I said a couple of posts ago, I think he cut the apron to sign the graffiti. But like you said he may have initially cut the apron to carry the organs.

Maybe he learned from chapman that he needed something to wrap them up with.
So he brings something with him next time, but with the aborted attempt with stride he needs it to wipe his hands (church street sightings) and throws that one out before he finds eddowes.

Which brings us to the red hanky again and it's significance. Or not. Maybe the Berner street witnesses just missed it.

[Abby Normal]

We don't know what "nearly the whole time" means other than that she was not at her door the entire time.

c.d.

Exactly. Which makes her basically useless as a witness.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny Mortimer is useless as a witness? That's news to me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

Hi Abby

Maybe he learned from chapman that he needed something to wrap them up with..

The press reports do indicate that an item of Chapman`s clothing was missing.

Which brings us to the red hanky again and it's significance. Or not. Maybe the Berner street witnesses just missed it.

Schwartz was behind BSM man, apart from when he crossed the street and looked across at him, but it was all kicking off then and he understandably could have missed it.

[Michael W Richards]

Well for someone who was supposedly there for the virtually the full half hour, between 12:30 and 1:00, she missed seeing an awful lot of people: Charles Letchford, PC Smith, Morris Eagle returning to the club, Joseph Lave, Liz Stride, Liz Stride's killer...

We don't need for her to have seen PC Smith, we know from him that he was there. Its what he saw, not who he was seen by. And Yes, its interesting that at any of her stays at the door during that half hour she didn't see Liz...does that mean she missed seeing her, or that she wasn't visible to Fanny...she might well have been in the passageway shortly after PC Smith leaves, which would of course negate any statements made by Lave, eagle or Schwartz. Since Lave and Eagle were at the same place at the same time and didn't see anything or anyone including each other, and since Eagle couldnt be sure if he had to step around a dead body or not at 12:40 when he said he arrived back at the club, perhaps people might be less critical of Fanny.

As far as Liz Strides killer goes, he might never have been outside on the street, he could have come from the club property.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Abby
The press reports do indicate that an item of Chapman`s clothing was missing.

Schwartz was behind BSM man, apart from when he crossed the street and looked across at him, but it was all kicking off then and he understandably could have missed it.

If the motive for the crime was Masturbation a red scarf or handkerchief might make sense... And would explain the collection of items of clothes or souvenirs.

The motive for the Yorkshire Ripper was almost certainly Masturbation.. He masturbated before during and after the attacks and took souvenirs to help this process..... he struggled with orgasm during normal sex.

And Harold Jones also had a handcheif fetish carrying ladies items, if he was the Hammersmith Nude murder (And I'm not stating for certain he was) the motive for Jack the Stripper also appears to have been Masturbation collecting the victims teeth as trophies and storing the bodies and redressing them presumably for post mortem sex

Yours Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Schwartz was behind BSM man, apart from when he crossed the street and looked across at him, but it was all kicking off then and he understandably could have missed it.

Hey Jon, if you wish to rely on a report that is not validated in any shape or form within the known physical evidence and not supported by any witness statements, and not considered relevant to the hearing into whether Liz Stride was murdered, then have at it.

Using Israel Schwartz instead of all the witnesses that claim different scenarios for the time around 12:45 isn't your best bet, IMHO of course.

[Abby Normal]

Fanny Mortimer is useless as a witness? That's news to me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
Good to see you on here.

Yes she is-what does she contribute? Other than seeing Goldstein, an innocent passerby?

[Jon Guy]

Hey Jon, if you wish to rely on a report that is not validated in any shape or form within the known physical evidence and not supported by any witness statements, and not considered relevant to the hearing into whether Liz Stride was murdered, then have at it.

Hi Mike

No, I`ve gone with Schwartz`s statement.

[John G]

We don't need for her to have seen PC Smith, we know from him that he was there. Its what he saw, not who he was seen by. And Yes, its interesting that at any of her stays at the door during that half hour she didn't see Liz...does that mean she missed seeing her, or that she wasn't visible to Fanny...she might well have been in the passageway shortly after PC Smith leaves, which would of course negate any statements made by Lave, eagle or Schwartz. Since Lave and Eagle were at the same place at the same time and didn't see anything or anyone including each other, and since Eagle couldnt be sure if he had to step around a dead body or not at 12:40 when he said he arrived back at the club, perhaps people might be less critical of Fanny.

As far as Liz Strides killer goes, he might never have been outside on the street, he could have come from the club property.

I think the clear inference is that Fanny was not at her door for anything like the full half hour. And, of course, if she was then if Louis had arrived before 1:00am she should have seen him, and his pony and cart, as well.

I do, however, accept that Liz may have been killed by someone exiting the club property.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom
Good to see you on here.

Yes she is-what does she contribute? Other than seeing Goldstein, an innocent passerby?

For starters, her witnessing of Goldstein and his subsequent coming forward makes her that rarest of beasts - a corroborated witness. Goldstein's timing backs hers up and gives us a timeline of her events. She was inside her house with her door open for some time and then stood in her doorway for approx. 10 minutes. She corroborates Schwartz's observation that the street was pretty much dead around that time. Unfortunately, she went to her doorway after Schwartz's scene had played out. But she tells us what DIDN'T happen during those ten minutes and there's value in that.

Also as an aside, some people like to mention that Mortimer put another couple on the street, but that's not true. The couple James Brown saw was probably Stride and Pipeman, or Stride and some other man. The couple Mortimer mentions were on the street around midnight, not around 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

For starters, her witnessing of Goldstein and his subsequent coming forward makes her that rarest of beasts - a corroborated witness. Goldstein's timing backs hers up and gives us a timeline of her events. She was inside her house with her door open for some time and then stood in her doorway for approx. 10 minutes. She corroborates Schwartz's observation that the street was pretty much dead around that time. Unfortunately, she went to her doorway after Schwartz's scene had played out. But she tells us what DIDN'T happen during those ten minutes and there's value in that.

Also as an aside, some people like to mention that Mortimer put another couple on the street, but that's not true. The couple James Brown saw was probably Stride and Pipeman, or Stride and some other man. The couple Mortimer mentions were on the street around midnight, not around 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I thought we might be in agreement based on your last post, but Fanny stated : "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound".

That not only suggests that they were the same couple, before and after the event, but also that she spoke with them herself..so she could have verified that they were indeed the same couple. As for Israel, you would have to assume that Fanny was indoors during that period...and that she couldn't hear anything from the street...despite the fact she says she heard bootsteps while indoors. Seems like she could have at least heard 3 pairs of boots and a yell. When added to the fact that Israel or his story were in no way a part of the Inquest into Strides demise, a pragmatic approach would be to set him aside pending any yet undiscovered corroboration. Police buying into his story fro a brief period is about as meaningful as them buying into Hutchinsons story...when they couldn't even be sure he was Wideawake or not... without any supporting evidence that the loitering man was George Hutchinson.

As for Brown, I would think that its almost certainly the same couple Fanny said she saw, in part, based on how far they were from her when she saw them.

[John G]

For starters, her witnessing of Goldstein and his subsequent coming forward makes her that rarest of beasts - a corroborated witness. Goldstein's timing backs hers up and gives us a timeline of her events. She was inside her house with her door open for some time and then stood in her doorway for approx. 10 minutes. She corroborates Schwartz's observation that the street was pretty much dead around that time. Unfortunately, she went to her doorway after Schwartz's scene had played out. But she tells us what DIDN'T happen during those ten minutes and there's value in that.

Also as an aside, some people like to mention that Mortimer put another couple on the street, but that's not true. The couple James Brown saw was probably Stride and Pipeman, or Stride and some other man. The couple Mortimer mentions were on the street around midnight, not around 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Good to see you back! Of course, Mortimer said the other couple were standing on the corner of the street about 20 yards away, before and after the time Stride must have been murdered, but they told her they didn't see or hear anything.

It has been suggested that this was the same couple seen by James Brown at around 12:45. However, I know you've said before that they were on the street earlier, around midnight. I believe you may have even mentioned a source...!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Good to see you back! Of course, Mortimer said the other couple were standing on the corner of the street about 20 yards away, before and after the time Stride must have been murdered, but they told her they didn't see or hear anything.

It has been suggested that this was the same couple seen by James Brown at around 12:45. However, I know you've said before that they were on the street earlier, around midnight. I believe you may have even mentioned a source...!

It was initially believed, for whatever reason, that Stride had been murdered around midnight. So early reports that talk about 'around the time the murder happened' are referring to midnight. Of course, once the information was in and sorted we learned Stride was murdered around 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

It was initially believed, for whatever reason, that Stride had been murdered around midnight. So early reports that talk about 'around the time the murder happened' are referring to midnight. Of course, once the information was in and sorted we learned Stride was murdered around 1am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the reply. Of course, Fanny Mortimer must have believed that the murder took place between 12:30 and 1:00am, during which time she claimed to be standing on her doorstep: "A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been been done whilst I was standing at the door of my house."

However, Mortimer doesn't specifically say that she saw the couple whilst standing on her doorstep, or when she spoke to them. Therefore, may have been under the misapprehension that the murder occurred earlier.