Packer and Schwartz

[lynn cates]

original

Hello Jeff. Thanks. Excellent post.

Personally, I think that Schwartz was fibbing to help take heat off the club. However, if he told the truth, he may have witnessed another couple altogether. And this would soon have become obvious to the investigating coppers.

In the Wirtkofsky tale, Lowenheim had a good look at him. Perhaps that was the original of the Seaside Home?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

intentional?

Hello Cris. Thanks.

Yes, quite possible.

Of course, it could be intentional misleading or just a mistake.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

knotty problem

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

A slight difficulty. If she is on her knees before him and facing east, why is the scarf's knot tight and to the LEFT?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

language

Hello Packer. Thanks.

"Not Swanson then..."

Swanson seemed aware of the situation at Leman. He also seemed not conflicted with their doubts.

" . . . who did clearly believe Schwartz . . ."

Umm, not exactly his language? He indicated he saw nothing in Abberline's report to cast doubt on it.

A bit different?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

second helping

Hello CD. Thanks.

"But isn't that assuming that the B.S. man was her killer? Schwartz never claimed to have witnessed a murder so how can his story be considered far-fetched in that regard?"

Very well. But there is STILL the matter of the cachous, feeling comfortable for a cachous break, and a SECOND assault.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

That's all, folks.

Hello (again) CD.

"I agree that a competent investigator would initially assume the B.S. man to be her killer . . ."

If I deemed the tale true, without doubt.

" . . . but further investigation would bring to light all of the red flags associated with that conclusion."

EXACTLY! Along with the assessment of "porky."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

split decision

Hello Jon.

"We do not possess any more evidence than the police had, and their view was split."

Yes, and sometimes we forget this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

red flag

Hello Ben.

"We've probably discussed this many times, but I would dispute the existence of any particular "red flags" associated with that particular conclusion."

The cachous?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

harassment

Hello CD. Whitechapel? Perhaps St. George-in-the-east?

Are you suggesting that Liz were harassing these chaps?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Ben.

"It's not just the sheer implausibility of two separate attackers descending on the same woman within minutes of each other, but rather the unlikelihood of the woman remaining in the same exact location following the first attack to await the murderous second."

Bingo. And with cachous in hand between thumb and forefinger.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pun

Hello PCDunn. Please be aware that "long" was a frequently used adjective for ANYONE named Stride. Long Stride--a pun.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

A slight difficulty. If she is on her knees before him and facing east, why is the scarf's knot tight and to the LEFT?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn

The scarf was tightly knotted, as it would be if pulled. It states nowhere that it was tightly knotted round her neck? As I interpret it, the knot was tight, the scarf not, and could have slipped round at any time.

Best wishes
Gwyneth

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks. Excellent post.
Personally, I think that Schwartz was fibbing to help take heat off the club.

Its a long shot

However, if he told the truth, he may have witnessed another couple altogether.

I guess this has been covered but he did identify Stride

And this would soon have become obvious to the investigating coppers.

I think we can agree that if the police had suspect detained they would have used Schwartz. And if that was the case Schwartz either failed to make an ID or couldn't make an ID because he didn't witness the murder.

Persoanlly i think the man he saw was the same man described by PC Smith and thus he did witness the murder but didn't get a good look at BSM's face...his view being largely of the rear

In the Wirtkofsky tale, Lowenheim had a good look at him. Perhaps that was the original of the Seaside Home?
Cheers.
LC

I'm not familiar with Wirkosky's tale.

However it strikes me that if COX got on the trail of the suspect after the Kelly murder, and the man was placed out of harms way when Macnaughten says, March 1889 and where Cox says, a Private asylum in Surrey, and the Seaside Home ID didn't take place until 1891 almost two years later...then the witness was discovered at a later date than March 1889.

Personally I now think it possible that someone (who was jewish) saw Jack leaving Millers Court between 4-6am, who was traced at a later date, following the evidence of Hutchinson and Sarah Lewis. This is the only possibility of making sense of the Marginalia, what Anderson says and why Macnaughten thought Druit was the Ripper.

Oh and the 'Seaside Home' was the Holloway convalescent Home, next door to the Police Seaside Home in Hove..A private asylum in Surrey

Yours jeff

[S.Brett]

OK he was the best witness?

But it does not fit what either Anderson or Swanson says?

The argument Karsten has put forward here about; Aron,Davis,Cohen or David Cohen, is far more revealing is it not?

What we actually know is that arrests were made around 22nd Dec 1888 and the suspect was let go? Is that not the facts?

Yours Jeff

Hello Jeff,

In my opinion, it is possible that the "wrong" Kosminski, David Cohen, telling us the truth about the "right" Kosminski, Aaron Mordke Kozminski.

The name "Aaron Davis Cohen" (David Cohen) could have been the name of Aaron Kozminski in 1888 as later Aaron Abrahams (December 1889).

When Aaron Kozminski was placed for a short time in Surrey (end of November/ beginning December 1888) the police were searching for him and they found a man similar to Aaron Kozminski. If this is the truth Aaron Kozminski had to do with the brothel incident in Whitechapel Road (Gertrude Smith, Mary Jones, Ellen Hickey, N.Cohen and Aaron Davis Cohen).

On the morning of 22. November 1888 there was an incident in/near Brick Lane. Involved in it, maybe, was a married woman, "Matilda", 34 years old. In 1888, the sister of Aaron Kozminski, Matilda Lubnowski, was 34 years old and married. Her husband, Morris Lubnowski, worked as a bootlaster. Later, they changed the name Lubnowski to Cohen. Perhaps, the N. Cohen was M. Cohen (Morris Lubnowski). After this incident, I can well imagine, the family brought Aaron to the asylum in Surrey.

There was one of the Leather Apron called "The Mad Snob". Some of the bootlaster were called "Snob":

http://www.familytreeservice.co.uk/census-occupations-b-Boot-Laster.html

Loftus (Macnaghten):

"a Polish tanner or cobbler"

Tanner:

http://www.familytreeservice.co.uk/census-occupations-t-Tanner.html

At the time of Aaron Kozminski´s admission to Colney Hatch his brother Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen (the informant/ Colney Hatch) and Thomas Davies. I can well imagine that in 1888 Thomas Davies was in a business partnership with Morris Lubnowski (Cohen), (and perhaps with Jacob Cohen) and the business went under the name Cohen/Davies. If Aaron worked in this shop, maybe, he went under the name Aaron Davies Cohen. At the beginning of December 1888 (7 Dec.) the police were searching for him and found a man, similar to him. When the police realized the mistake, they changed his name to "David Cohen", a "John Doe". But I feel sure that the police found Aaron Davies Cohen (Kozminski) in a private asylum in Surrey. After this, Cox watched "Kosminski" three months.

In this shop (I suspect in/near Brick Lane) Aaron worked and lived there. After the work, Morris went home (16 Greenfield Street).

It is possible that the "Leather Apron" called "The Mad Snob" was Aaron Kozminski. A bootlaster in Brick Lane (or neighborhood). On holidays, weekends and at night time he lived alone in this shop ("his shop"/ Cox). "The several shops in the East End" could mean a connection with his job as a bootlaster/ snob ("cobbler"). The tanner, maybe, is connected with the Butchers Row (Sagar).

Yours Karsten.

[curious4]

Hello Jeff,

In my opinion, it is possible that the "wrong" Kosminski, David Cohen, telling us the truth about the "right" Kosminski, Aaron Mordke Kozminski.

The name "Aaron Davis Cohen" (David Cohen) could have been the name of Aaron Kozminski in 1888 as later Aaron Abrahams (December 1889).

When Aaron Kozminski was placed for a short time in Surrey (end of November/ beginning December 1888) the police were searching for him and they found a man similar to Aaron Kozminski. If this is the truth Aaron Kozminski had to do with the brothel incident in Whitechapel Road (Gertrude Smith, Mary Jones, Ellen Hickey, N.Cohen and Aaron Davis Cohen).

On the morning of 22. November 1888 there was an incident in/near Brick Lane. Involved in it, maybe, was a married woman, "Matilda", 34 years old. In 1888, the sister of Aaron Kozminski, Matilda Lubnowski, was 34 years old and married. Her husband, Morris Lubnowski, worked as a bootlaster. Later, they changed the name Lubnowski to Cohen. Perhaps, the N. Cohen was M. Cohen (Morris Lubnowski). After this incident, I can well imagine, the family brought Aaron to the asylum in Surrey.

There was one of the Leather Apron called "The Mad Snob". Some of the bootlaster were called "Snob":

http://www.familytreeservice.co.uk/census-occupations-b-Boot-Laster.html

Loftus (Macnaghten):

"a Polish tanner or cobbler"

Tanner:

http://www.familytreeservice.co.uk/census-occupations-t-Tanner.html

At the time of Aaron Kozminski´s admission to Colney Hatch his brother Woolf Abrahams was in a business partnership with Jacob Cohen (the informant/ Colney Hatch) and Thomas Davies. I can well imagine that in 1888 Thomas Davies was in a business partnership with Morris Lubnowski (Cohen), (and perhaps with Jacob Cohen) and the business went under the name Cohen/Davies. If Aaron worked in this shop, maybe, he went under the name Aaron Davies Cohen. At the beginning of December 1888 (7 Dec.) the police were searching for him and found a man, similar to him. When the police realized the mistake, they changed his name to "David Cohen", a "John Doe". But I feel sure that the police found Aaron Davies Cohen (Kozminski) in a private asylum in Surrey. After this, Cox watched "Kosminski" three months.

In this shop (I suspect in/near Brick Lane) Aaron worked and lived there. After the work, Morris went home (16 Greenfield Street).

It is possible that the "Leather Apron" called "The Mad Snob" was Aaron Kozminski. A bootlaster in Brick Lane (or neighborhood). On holidays, weekends and at night time he lived alone in this shop ("his shop"/ Cox). "The several shops in the East End" could mean a connection with his job as a bootlaster/ snob ("cobbler"). The tanner, maybe, is connected with the Butchers Row (Sagar).

Yours Karsten.

Hello Karsten

Thanks for the reminder that a cobbler was called a snob. Had completely forgotten that one !

Best wishes
C4