Packer and Schwartz

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Firstly, Louis D's evidence. He stated that the time on the clock, outside the tobacco shop on Commercial Road, was 1:00am or an minute or two after. That means that he may have discovered the body as late as 1:05am, which is problematical to say the least, because that is the time that PC Lamb's evidence suggested that he arrived at the murder scene.

I'm not disagree with you here John, just pointing out that making detailed timings without at least 3 or 4 minutes leeway is difficult. But Louis D does indeed estimate his time by the clock 1 o'clock .. It only takes a 1-2 minute down to the yard by cart.

Regarding Stride, there's no proof that she was soliciting that night and absolutely no evidence that Dutfield's Yard was used for purposes of solicitation. Quite the reverse, in fact:

Coroner: "Do low women frequent Berner Street?"

William West: "I have seen men and women standing about and talking to each other in Fairclough Street."

Coroner: "But have you observed them nearer the club?"

William West: "No"

Coroner:"Or in the club yard?"

William West: "I did once, at eleven o'clock at night, about a year ago. They were chatting near the gates. That is the only time I have noticed such a thing, nor have I heard of it "

As Mandy Rice Davies said 'He would say that wouldn't he'

West clearly was protecting his club. Would he have set up Schwartz?

I don't really buy these conspiracy ideas, all to complex

And what of Schwartz, an Hungarian immigrant Jew? The difficulty is that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was an authoritarian state and, as a Jew, Schwartz may well have faced persecution, hence his decision to emigrate. Such an individual is therefore likely to be highly distrustful of authority, and the police in particular. And, of course, he could barely speak any English. Not, therefore, someone who is likely to come forward of his own volition. On the contrary, he is just the type of witness whose every instinct would be telling him not to get involved.

So who may have prompted him to come forward? Enter Morris Eagle. You see, the club had a problem. A women had just been found murdered on their premises, so it would be natural for the police to suspect a club member, and Eagle in particular, considering that by his own evidence he returned to the club just five minutes after PC Smith saw Stride opposite the club. And, of course, as a socialist club a nineteenth century police force were not likely to be predisposed to have a positive attitude towards the members.

No, Eagle had every reason to want to divert police attention towards a different scenario, and different suspect, and preferably introduced by someone not directly associated with the club: enter Israel Schwartz. And what may have persuaded him to come forward and enter into a conspiracy: well, mention of a reward and the opportunity to sell his story to the newspapers would have helped. It could also have been pointed out to him that other witnesses had given false evidence in the past, and action wasn't taken against them: the police wouldn't want to discourage witnesses from coming forward. There was therefore very little risk involved.

Its possible..it just doesn't seem likely. I don't think its ever been proved that Schwartz was connected to the club? Though it seems reasonable to speculate.

This is a murder inquiry, not telling the truth could have back fired on them.. I'm inclined to believe Schwartz saw what he saw and the various reports are explained by Eagles translation

Of course, we then have the seriously conflicting police and press accounts, with Pipeman transformed from a man lighting a pipe (police account) into a knife-wielding confederate of BS man (press version). And no mention of the crucial "Lipski" evidence in the press account, either. Funny that.

To my mind, this has all the hallmarks of a witness getting confused over a story that's been fed to him and, additionally, getting recklessly carried away before the gentleman of the press by adding his own embellishments.

Not surprisingly the Star initially informs the reader that "The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted" . And, in a report the following day, "the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story.""

Note the reference to the boys at Leman Street. The officers on the frontline, at the sharp end. The officers who had the opportunity to interview the witness and gauge his reactions.

Of course, despite the lack of any progress senior police officers seem to have accepted the evidence. But then the police were desperate for a breakthrough in the inquiry, just as the West Yorkshire Police, investigating the Yorkshire Ripper, were almost hundred years later. That resulted in that force placing almost total faith in the Wearside Jack letters and tapes. And we know where that ultimately lead.

However, perhaps Schwartz did see something that evening, and that formed the basis of what, ultimately, amounted to an invented story, a fabricated account. Referring to the Schwartz incident The Star reported: "Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and took no notice of it "

That suggests something very different to what Schwartz describes, involving witnesses he doesn't mention, and possibly in a very different location.

But I do agree about one thing: shame about the rugby yesterday!

Again it just makes more sense to me that he told it as good as he could... The pipe being turned into a knife by an over enthusiastic journalist..

Swansons report doesn't mention the knife and must be considered the most reliable

Yours Jeff

PS Yes its been a great world cup

[Abby Normal]

Jeff, I would not rule out that Schwartz saw the murderer of Stride! However, sometimes I think that I know nothing at all and that is a good thing.

Schwartz stated: full face, broad shouldered

The man who was found (by a constable) with a woollen scarf of a violet colour:

His face was haggard

fits better to Lawende´s description (red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, appearance of a sailor), to Major Smith (dressed in something like navy serge) to William Marshall (He was wearing a small peaked cap, something like a sailor would wear) and to the man seeing in Church Lane (with a sailor´s hat) than to Schwartz´s description. But this is just my perception...

Hi Brett and Jeff
Marshalls, Schwartz, lawendes and probably PC Smith's suspect was the same man. They are close enough in appearance and the common denominator is the peaked cap. And of course that they were seen with Stride.

It made an impression on Abberline in fact. see my sig below.

And the Church Lane sighting seals it for me-linking the Lawende suspect with the Berner street suspect.


My money is on the ripper wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, I would not rule out that Schwartz saw the murderer of Stride! However, sometimes I think that I know nothing at all and that is a good thing.

Schwartz stated: full face, broad shouldered

The man who was found (by a constable) with a woollen scarf of a violet colour:

His face was haggard

fits better to Lawende´s description (red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, appearance of a sailor), to Major Smith (dressed in something like navy serge) to William Marshall (He was wearing a small peaked cap, something like a sailor would wear) and to the man seeing in Church Lane (with a sailor´s hat) than to Schwartz´s description. But this is just my perception...

Yeah but Schwartz only really saw the back of the man... So he's the only one that mentions shoulders, because his perception was largely of the rear? Jef

[S.Brett]

Hi Abby!

The Star wrote:

"He (Schwartz) described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seemed to belong to the same grade of society."

Schwartz probably belonged to the people who saw Jack the Ripper and the police report is more important than the Star report.

Maybe that Mrs. Long also saw the same man:

"Mrs Long saw the woman's face, but she did not see the man's, except to notice that he was dark. She described him as wearing a brown deer-stalker hat..."

[Jeff Leahy]

My money is on the ripper wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

I think we can all agree on that..

The problem is that the description could have been almost anyone

And if Marshal, Smith and Schwartz see the same man, why was he hanging around and getting on and off with Stride?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Maybe that Mrs. Long also saw the same man:

"Mrs Long saw the woman's face, but she did not see the man's, except to notice that he was dark. She described him as wearing a brown deer-stalker hat..."

Also the same man seen running from Annie Farmers Bedroom? Shabby gentile

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby!

The Star wrote:

"He (Schwartz) described the man with the woman as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seemed to belong to the same grade of society."

Schwartz probably belonged to the people who saw Jack the Ripper and the police report is more important than the Star report.

Maybe that Mrs. Long also saw the same man:

"Mrs Long saw the woman's face, but she did not see the man's, except to notice that he was dark. She described him as wearing a brown deer-stalker hat..."

Hi Brett
I forgot about that Deerstalker hat description from Long. Thanks-another one with similar peaked cap.

[S.Brett]

Yeah but Schwartz only really saw the back of the man... So he's the only one that mentions shoulders, because his perception was largely of the rear? Jef

Packer stated:

On Sat night about 11pm a young man from 25-30 - about 5.7 with long black coat buttoned up - soft felt hat, kind of yankee hat rather broad shoulders - rather quick in speaking, rough voice...

How many men wore hats (of all kinds) and how many men had broad shoulders?

Again, William West:

“From ninety to 100 persons attended the discussion, which terminated soon after half-past eleven, when the bulk of the members left, using the street door, the most convenient exit. From twenty to thirty members remained, some staying in the lecture-room and the others going downstairs. Of those upstairs a few continued the discussion, while the rest were singing.”

100 persons... I am sure there were some of them with hats and broad shoulders...

[Jeff Leahy]

There is actually a reference in Paul Begg's book that indicates Schwartz may have actually attended the inquest. Assistant Commissioner Anderson wrote this in response to a letter from Abberline: "With ref. to yr letter a c. I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case is that the name Lipski which he alleges was used by the man whom he saw assaulting a women in Berner St. on the night of the murder, was not addresed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself.

Paul B suggests that Anderson may have been mistaken, or Schwartz gave his evidence in camera, or the police withheld his testimony.

Many thanks John, I'd not noted this before

Cheers Jef

[Jeff Leahy]

100 persons... I am sure there were some of them with hats and broad shoulders...

Agreed..jef

[Abby Normal]

I think we can all agree on that..

The problem is that the description could have been almost anyone

And if Marshal, Smith and Schwartz see the same man, why was he hanging around and getting on and off with Stride?

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff
I disagree it could have been almost anyone. Probably not Best and gardeners man, or Browns, or even Packers. They all say it was Stride but the hat probably rules them out. And shows that eventhough peaked types caps were common, half the witnesses describe a man with a different hat other than peaked cap.

I don't buy the peaked cap so common argument.

For example-Peaked cap American Baseball caps are probably the most common headwear in US these days but I think any detective investigating a murder today-if 3 witnesses describe a suspect wearing a baseball type cap-he would probably conclude the murderer was wearing a baseball cap.

Now if you are trying to tie the peaked cap to a SPECIFIC suspect I agree. Although Chapman photo shows him wearing that type of cap and recent Aussie George candidate was described as Able Seaman. But of course both very tenuous.

In terms of hanging around off and on with Stride?

I see the following scenario:

Stride is not desperate. Shes not necessarily out actively solicitating. She just broke up with kidney-maybe shes out just for fun but keeping an eye out for a possible new boy friend.
She meets Peaked Cap (Broad shoulders) man in a pub.
He buys her a drink they hang out-walk around. hes trying to schmooze her into going into a secluded area, possibly for paid sex, or what ever reason hes giving.

Shes reluctant-you know killer out and about and all that and shes not going. He keeps trying but losing patience-he been spending time and money on her (Drinks?flower? caschous?).

After the PC walks by he tries one more time and she refuses. Hes pissed off, says the hell with it and walks away. At some point here he loses his temper bad and storms back to her.

This is where Schwartz sees him.

BS Man assaults and murders Stride.
Spooked by the all the interuptions (Schwartz and or diemshitz and or noise from club)he bolts before he can finish his true desires-mutilation.

He leaves, spotted in Church lane-then finds Eddowes.

[S.Brett]

Jeff, we have to assume that Pipeman and/or BS Man were found by the police. That might have changed everything. Both men could have had alibis for the time Schwartz claimed (12.45 - 01.00 am) and alibis when the Mitre Square murder took place. In the case of Pipeman if he was found there were two men (himself and Schwartz) who could identify "Kosminski"...

[John G]

I think the most crucial witness is PC Smith. Firstly, as a police officer his account can be regarded as reliable. Secondly, because he actually noticed, correctly, that Stride was wearing a flower.

I also think it perfectly possible that a second couple were wandering around the locality on the night of Stride's murder-possibly boyfriend and girlfriend-and that the woman bore a close resemblance to Liz Stride.

This would go someway to explaining the many discrepancies. And it could have been this alternative couple that was seen by Marshall, Brown and Schwartz (importantly, neither of these witnesses noticed the woman wearing a flower).

Therefore, in this scenario Schwartz may have witnessed nothing more than a domestic squabble. Of course, Stride would already be lying down dead, in Dutfield's Yard, by this time, having been murdered by PC Smith's suspect.

I also find it a little odd that Schwartz describes Stride as standing inside the gateway. I mean, if it's speculated that she was soliciting, or waiting for someone, wouldn't it be far more likely that she would position herself outside the gateway, or even on the pavement, where she could be more easily noticed? Standing inside the gateway might therefore suggest that there was someone stood behind her, that she was possibly conversing with, cloaked by the darkness of the yard, thereby unseen by witnesses.

[Abby Normal]

I think the most crucial witness is PC Smith. Firstly, as a police officer his account can be regarded as reliable. Secondly, because he actually noticed, correctly, that Stride was wearing a flower.

I also think it perfectly possible that a second couple were wandering around the locality on the night of Stride's murder-possibly boyfriend and girlfriend-and that the woman bore a close resemblance to Liz Stride.

This would go someway to explaining the many discrepancies. And it could have been this alternative couple that was seen by Marshall, Brown and Schwartz (importantly, neither of these witnesses noticed the woman wearing a flower).

Therefore, in this scenario Schwartz may have witnessed nothing more than a domestic squabble. Of course, Stride would already be lying down dead, in Dutfield's Yard, by this time, having been murdered by PC Smith's suspect.

Hi JhnG
Im pretty sure there was a second couple-I think Brown and even Mortimer saw this couple. But IMHO all things considered-the others saw the ripper and stride and simply missed the flower.

[S.Brett]

Hi Jeff
I disagree it could have been almost anyone. Probably not Best and gardeners man, or Browns, or even Packers. They all say it was Stride but the hat probably rules them out. And shows that eventhough peaked types caps were common, half the witnesses describe a man with a different hat other than peaked cap.

I don't buy the peaked cap so common argument.

For example-Peaked cap American Baseball caps are probably the most common headwear in US these days but I think any detective investigating a murder today-if 3 witnesses describe a suspect wearing a baseball type cap-he would probably conclude the murderer was wearing a baseball cap.

Now if you are trying to tie the peaked cap to a SPECIFIC suspect I agree. Although Chapman photo shows him wearing that type of cap and recent Aussie George candidate was described as Able Seaman. But of course both very tenuous.

In terms of hanging around off and on with Stride?

I see the following scenario:

Stride is not desperate. Shes not necessarily out actively solicitating. She just broke up with kidney-maybe shes out just for fun but keeping an eye out for a possible new boy friend.
She meets Peaked Cap (Broad shoulders) man in a pub.
He buys her a drink they hang out-walk around. hes trying to schmooze her into going into a secluded area, possibly for paid sex, or what ever reason hes giving.

Shes reluctant-you know killer out and about and all that and shes not going. He keeps trying but losing patience-he been spending time and money on her (Drinks?flower? caschous?).

After the PC walks by he tries one more time and she refuses. Hes pissed off, says the hell with it and walks away. At some point here he loses his temper bad and storms back to her.

This is where Schwartz sees him.

BS Man assaults and murders Stride.
Spooked by the all the interuptions (Schwartz and or diemshitz and or noise from club)he bolts before he can finish his true desires-mutilation.

He leaves, spotted in Church lane-then finds Eddowes.

Abby,

In 2003/2004 I witnessed a similar incident in Bonn (Germany), similar Schwartz/Stride/BS Man. Coming from a club I saw everything that happened. The woman and the men I saw, they looked like all the people I met in that night, I mean their clothing...

You are totally right that Schwartz probably saw the Ripper. I have no other choice than to believe that Schwartz had seen the Ripper.

I am convinced that Mrs. Long and Lawende have seen the Ripper with victims (Chapman, Eddowes). And Schwartz and Hutchinson, am I convinced ? No... but in the case of Schwartz, I guess, I have to agree with you...