Packer and Schwartz

[Paddy]

Karsten, I can only think records are not easily available without a valid reason.

Pat.........

[Paddy]

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. FRIDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1888.

A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.

A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance.

A report last night = 11th October at latest
"an East end Infirmary"

Pat............

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello (again) Jeff. Good luck on your excursion.
Cheers.
LC

Unfortunately St Georges in the East was pissing down at seven O'clock this morning.... Will try again tomorrow

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Karsten so sorry, getting my Kaminskys and Cohens mixed.
You are quite right it was David not Nathan.

I once found a Nathan Karninsky/i in the workhouse registers on ancestry,
who was transferred to or from Bethlem Asylum. This looked very like Kaminsky (rn and m look very similar) Might be worth a look?

Pat..........

Bethlem- An asylum in Surrey..

In the admissions book for Bethlem 1889 (National Archive) there were two Cohen's listed and one Davies, but I won't be able to confirm these until I visit the main archive in Bromley...next stop when Catrin is back on her feet

Yours Jeff

[S.Brett]

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. FRIDAY, 12 OCTOBER, 1888.

A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.

A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance.

A report last night = 11th October at latest
"an East end Infirmary"

Pat............

Hi Pat!

I have an idea... in "Prime Suspect", Rob House discribed that the man who left the shirts in Batty Street and returned said the blood is from a friend who had a wound by an accident ("cutting his corn"). Maybe the man in the East End Infirmary had a cut and must be treated and we are searching for a man in an infirmary who had an injury.

Karsten.

[Paddy]

Hi Karsten

Another point of interest in the Irish Times (also reported in the Morning Advertiser, 17th October) is that ‘the German lodginghouse-keeper could clear up the point as to the existence of any other lodger absent from the house under the suspicious circumstances referred to’. Why the reference to ‘any other’ lodger being absent or missing? Could it be that someone had been arrested and released, but attention was now being turned to someone else? It could just be a misleading or clumsy expression, but reference to ‘any other lodger’ being absent is interesting. This suggests there was already one man absent and this man was accounted for; but there was now interest in another man. The Irish Times carried the same report as the Daily News about the arrest and release of the man, so is this an indication that someone else was now being sought? [/B](Casebook dissertations Mrs Kuers Lodger by Gavin Bromey originally in Ripperologist No. 81, July 2007)

Yes I personally think this could be the case. When the news report said the blood came from someone else in 22 Batty street, I think they could have meant that the blood came from a person (not lodger) that lived in the same house as the one that they knew about already (in Infirmary?). This would mean a relative or friend who collected the shirts and was arrested and then let go when he said he had done it himself.

It also seems to point that the arrest was made on 6th or before
If the report in the Irish Times (16 October) is correct regarding the matter being satisfactorily accounted for over a week before, then it may point to an arrest on the weekend of October 6-7.[/B] (Casebook dissertations Mrs Kuers Lodger by Gavin Bromey originally in Ripperologist No. 81, July 2007)

Suspect sent to infirmary before 6th (for what?) Friend or relative handing them to Mrs kuer, saying the person who they belonged to had gone away. (hence the "hes gone away" statement made by Mrs Kuer) Couple that with the fact that probably a lot of people realised there was a local chap that was not quite right sometimes, might raise Mrs Kuers' suspicions more. The police would have enquired into where the person the shirts belonged to had gone and maybe then discovered the infirmary suspect (whom others had talked to them about and who could have been admitted somewhere with mental distress and / or cuts
Some of the press records that came from others, could have very slight errors.
I find it a very plausable theory......

Infirmary records?
Police records?
So how to prove it Karsten ??
Pat.............

[Jeff Leahy]

Good Morning Karsten

Weather a little better here today in the UK. I',ve got to be at Guys by 2 pm so I'll stop via the opening of Cox's route.

I've marked in Green the route you've suggested starting in Wentworth Street.

This takes you down Commercial Street, Leaman Street and left into Cable street towards St George's in the East.

I'm then assuming the route takes us back via Provenance Street, Batty or Berner street, Greenfield street...(this may alter when i'm on the ground as I plan to go through StGeorge's... and street layout different from 1888)

This could then go upto Osbourne street or past the white heart towards George Yard? and back to wentworth street

I've marked as Blue possible House from which Cox watches, Pink is the area for Kozminski's shop and his known residences in 1888.

The red line is the area I'm speculating he met all his victims except Stride.

I'll probably only get Wentworth street done today... once I have stills I'll start working out how this can be turned into a video sequence using 3D mapping

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

"Two different events...the same suspect."

More likely, the same wishful thinking.

Cheers.
LC

Morning Lynn

I again point you back between the difference of Good and Bad speculation..

Were not just putting around wild guess work but actually looking in detail at what each of the police officers involved said and try to figure out where they match up and where they don't ...why they don't?

I've been over these records a million times and the only thing that makes sense is that Kozminski becomes a suspect early on but disappeared from the investigation only to come back into it at a later date for reason unknown..

But there are 'possibilities' this can be speculated without 'wishful thinking'

Yours Jeff

PS If Kozminski wasn't Anderson or Swansons suspect there is another possibility.....Monroe, he is the first one to claim the case was solved in 1892

[S.Brett]

Great, Jeff... good morning...

Please mark the Goulston Street & Old Castle Street/Castle Alley (green) and between them "Cox" (blue) and the shop (pink). Maybe, it makes sense to mark the "chazar mark" on Goulston Street (but I do not exactly know where it was) and the "Leman Street Shop" (somewhere on this street).

I am not sure but many many years later there were butchers between Goulston Street and Old Castle Street in Wentworth Street named Cohen, Friends and Frankel. In Black Lion Yard (1891) there was a Frankel from Klodawa. After 1900, I think, there was a Frankel in 58 Butchers Row (in 1888 the butcher was Bullas) opposite this shop Sagar was watching in December 1890.

Yours Karsten.

[Jeff Leahy]

Great, Jeff... good morning...

Please mark the Goulston Street & Old Castle Street/Castle Alley (green) and between them "Cox" (blue) and the shop (pink). Maybe, it makes sense to mark the "chazar mark" on Goulston Street (but I do not exactly know where it was) and the "Leman Street Shop" (somewhere on this street).

I am not sure but many many years later there were butchers between Goulston Street and Old Castle Street in Wentworth Street named Cohen, Friends and Frankel. In Black Lion Yard (1891) there was a Frankel from Klodawa. After 1900, I think, there was a Frankel in 58 Butchers Row (in 1888 the butcher was Bullas) opposite this shop Sagar was watching in December 1890.

Yours Karsten.

Cool I don't have time now, but we can make a start. If you could try and mark on a map your further areas of interest We'll up date as we go along..

I'm not going to commit to High Def until I know exactly what I'm shooting or we will end up with Thousands of GB's of unwanted material

I'm off Jx

[S.Brett]

Hi Karsten


Yes I personally think this could be the case. When the news report said the blood came from someone else in 22 Batty street, I think they could have meant that the blood came from a person (not lodger) that lived in the same house as the one that they knew about already (in Infirmary?). This would mean a relative or friend who collected the shirts and was arrested and then let go when he said he had done it himself.


Suspect sent to infirmary before 6th (for what?) Friend or relative handing them to Mrs kuer, saying the person who they belonged to had gone away. (hence the "hes gone away" statement made by Mrs Kuer) Couple that with the fact that probably a lot of people realised there was a local chap that was not quite right sometimes, might raise Mrs Kuers' suspicions more. The police would have enquired into where the person the shirts belonged to had gone and maybe then discovered the infirmary suspect (whom others had talked to them about and who could have been admitted somewhere with mental distress and / or cuts
Some of the press records that came from others, could have very slight errors.
I find it a very plausable theory......

Infirmary records?
Police records?
So how to prove it Karsten ??
Pat.............

Hello Pat,

Thanks.

I will answer you later in day. Too busy at the moment.

Karsten.

[S.Brett]

Cool I don't have time now, but we can make a start. If you could try and mark on a map your further areas of interest We'll up date as we go along..

I'm not going to commit to High Def until I know exactly what I'm shooting or we will end up with Thousands of GB's of unwanted material

I'm off Jx

Okay Jeff, Nic did it...

Dark blue spot: "Chazar Mark" (Cox´s Tailor and Capmakers who employed boys and girls under age)

Dark green spot: "Leman Street Shop"

Brown spot: "Escape Route" Church Lane (after Stride)

Yellow spot: "Escape Route" Stoney Lane (after Eddowes)

Warm greetings to Cat...

[S.Brett]

Now there are green lines in Goulston Street, Old Castle Street/Castle Alley & pink and blue lines between Goulston Street & Old Castle Street!

[S.Brett]

Yes I personally think this could be the case. When the news report said the blood came from someone else in 22 Batty street, I think they could have meant that the blood came from a person (not lodger) that lived in the same house as the one that they knew about already (in Infirmary?). This would mean a relative or friend who collected the shirts and was arrested and then let go when he said he had done it himself.


Suspect sent to infirmary before 6th (for what?) Friend or relative handing them to Mrs kuer, saying the person who they belonged to had gone away. (hence the "hes gone away" statement made by Mrs Kuer) Couple that with the fact that probably a lot of people realised there was a local chap that was not quite right sometimes, might raise Mrs Kuers' suspicions more. The police would have enquired into where the person the shirts belonged to had gone and maybe then discovered the infirmary suspect (whom others had talked to them about and who could have been admitted somewhere with mental distress and / or cuts
Some of the press records that came from others, could have very slight errors.
I find it a very plausable theory......

It also seems to point that the arrest was made on 6th or before
If the report in the Irish Times (16 October) is correct regarding the matter being satisfactorily accounted for over a week before, then it may point to an arrest on the weekend of October 6-7.

Mrs. Kuer´s lodger Carl Noun returned from Margate on 6 October. I think it is possible that on 13 October two men were arrested. First the man who left the shirts (after the Double Event) when he returned for collecting the shirts (released on the same day), and secondly a man who was released on Monday (15 October). The second man could have been the man in the "Infirmary". Maybe, an ID took place on this weekend with this suspect and with Schwartz and Lawende but it failed. The "Infirmary": Is it possible, Pat, that the Infirmary had been a Doctor´s practice with some "hospital beds" at the premises of this doctor and not in the kind of the Workhouse Infirmary or Mile End Old Town Workhouse?

Karsten.

[Paddy]

HI Karsten, In one newspaper it said "The East End Infirmary" but in another it said "An East End Infirmary"
I personally think that if it was a Aaron he would have been somewhere like the Jewish Hospital. His family seemed to be finacially comfortable with connections. I can imagine they wouldn't want him in the Workhouse Infirmary especially with the police on his tail. I would then guess he was sent away for a rest possibly a Jewish rest home. I did wonder about Norwood as I believe Pizer was there at one time, not sure if it took adults in 1888 though.
I dont think an ID would be allowed till he came out.
Or when he came out of infirmary and was going away for a rest the police were waiting and took him? I think the with difficulty would be the family understandably not liking this at all. If both witnesses went I suspect one wouldnt id him and the other couldnt. If Schwartz was one of them, it would explain how he knew suspect was Jewish and unwell, he id'd him in a Jewish rest home.....
Just a theory though !

Pat.........